The duo breaks down the surprisingly complex world of the hair follicle, spills the tea on stem cells and the dermal papilla (DP), and explains why so many treatments shrink hair instead of kicking it out for good. Whether you’re a seasoned pro or just laser-curious, this episode mixes physics, biology, and a few “wait, WHAT?” moments to reveal why timing the follicle’s growth phase is the real secret to long-lasting results.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

The hair shaft acts as a conduit that contains melanin to absorb light energy and convert it into heat, but the actual goal is to dismantle the follicle structure.

For effective permanent removal, the laser must successfully target and destroy the stem cells in the bulge and the dermal papilla (DP* at the base of the bulb.

As a hair follicle grows during the Anagen phase, the bulb descends deeper into the skin (towards the subcutis), making it progressively harder to kill as it gets further from the surface.

If a treatment uses insufficient fluence (energy), it may only partially damage the DP. The follicle then regenerates with fewer cells, resulting in a thinner, lighter hair.

Most hair visible on the surface is in the Catagen or Telogen phase, meaning it lacks a matrix and cannot be effectively treated. The true targets for permanent removal are actually invisible beneath the skin during early-to-mid Anagen.

BEST MOMENTS

"The hair is not the target. The hair is a conduit to essentially dismantle the follicle."

"If you kill all the stem cells in the bulge but you leave behind some DP cells, then the DP can regenerate some stem cells."

"The matrix can have up to five times the concentration of melanin compared to the hair... that makes it a really, really good target for light."

"Catching the follicle at the right time is quite tricky because if you don’t catch it at the right time, the DP might just be too deep."

"Science doesn’t lie; we just keep moving around a bit."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Many laser technicians are taught to ‘under-treat’ or follow rigid, incorrect protocols, leading to more sessions with fewer results.

Energy output on a screen may not match what is actually being delivered; machines naturally lose efficiency over time and require regular professional calibration.

Different body areas have different growth cycles (e.g., leg hair has a very long anagen phase), meaning treating every area at the same four-week interval is often ineffective.

Thicker hairs tend to be deeper in the skin. Effective treatment requires enough energy (fluence) to reach the follicle's base, which varies by body site.

Firing multiple low-energy shots (e.g., three shots at 10 Joules) does not equal the depth penetration of one high-energy shot (e.g., one shot at 30 Joules).

BEST MOMENTS

"You pass your test, and then you're free to drive on the roads, and that's when you learn to drive properly. It’s the same in the laser game."

"A lot of people out there, they don't know what they don't know."

"Calibration is really only valid for that day. All machines, they all lose efficiency over time."

"If you're targeting hair with a 'sub-lethal threshold', you will not kill the follicles. They will regenerate, they'll grow back, and the hairs will be finer."

"The higher the fluence, the deeper it goes. It's as simple as that. And the deeper you can penetrate into the skin, the more follicles you'll hit."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Many legal letters demanding compensation for alleged injuries are tactic-driven attempts to scare business owners into quick settlements. If you know you've done nothing wrong, don't let aggressive language frighten you into paying up.

Before engaging with a claim, demand concrete evidence, such as up-to-date, date-stamped photographs of the alleged injury. Frivolous claims often fall apart when proof is required.

Read the fine print of your insurance contracts. Some policies require specific protocols (like ‘before and after’ photos for every treatment) to be valid; missing a step could leave you uncovered.

Once a claim escalates or legal action is threatened, direct all communication to your insurance company. Do not attempt to resolve it yourself or speak to the claimant or their lawyers directly.

Trademarks expire. Ensure you keep your business name and branding registrations up to date to prevent others from capitalising on your hard-earned reputation.

BEST MOMENTS

"There is a fear out there of being sued. It’s after burning their clients, it’s the biggest fear." 

"They are bully boys, these people. That’s all they are. They will try to frighten you with highly intimidating letters."

"If it's not recorded delivery, throw it in the bin."

"If it's in your policy wording as a 'must,' then you're technically not covered for anything if you don't do it."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Imposter syndrome, or the imposter phenomenon, is a common experience where individuals doubt their accomplishments and fear being exposed as a fraud, despite evidence of their competence.

Scoring high on imposter syndrome assessments (like a 76% score) is not inherently good or bad; it highlights the importance of awareness about one's feelings and experiences rather than labelling them negatively.

Major life changes, such as career shifts or becoming a parent, can trigger feelings of imposter syndrome. These transitions often lead to self-doubt and the perception of inadequacy.

The terminology used to describe imposter experiences can influence how individuals perceive their feelings. Referring to it as an "experience" rather than a "syndrome" can help normalize the feelings and reduce the stigma associated with them.

It's essential to recognise that imposter feelings can resurface, especially during new challenges. Strategies for managing these feelings include self-reflection, understanding the origins of these feelings, and reframing them as a normal part of growth and ambition.

BEST MOMENTS

"There is no good or bad or ugly. There's only awareness. That's what the whole scoring system is about."

"If I had my time again, I wouldn't even call it imposter phenomenon. I would call it the imposter experience."

"The very first paper written on it mentioned imposter phenomenon. Yet, if you ask 100 people in a room, have you heard of imposter phenomenon? Maybe one or two wee hands."

"I would first off tell you that if I did this now, I would be in the nineties. Oh, a hundred percent. I am worse now than when I did that."

"It's highly likely if there was ever going to be a scenario in which someone would start to have those questions or self-doubts, that's when it might happen."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

KEY TAKEAWAUS

Tattoos persist because ink particles are too large for the body's macrophages (immune cells) to carry away. The ink gets trapped inside these cells within the dermis, creating a permanent mark.

Tattoo ink exists in the skin as clumps or 'aggregates' of tiny particles. Lasers work by heating these aggregates rapidly, causing them to shatter into smaller pieces that the immune system can then flush out.

The rapid heating of ink by a laser causes the water inside the cells to boil instantly, creating a steam explosion. This mechanical force is what actually breaks apart the ink clusters.

Mike and Lisa discuss the 'R20 method' (doing multiple laser passes with 20-minute intervals) and conclude that there is little evidence to support its effectiveness over standard treatments, suggesting it may cause unnecessary trauma to the skin.

Effective tattoo removal relies on the body's lymphatic system to clear the shattered ink. Since the macrophages involved in this process live for about 30 days, rushing sessions doesn't speed up the fading - it only risks more damage.

BEST MOMENTS

"When the ink is introduced into the skin, the skin responds by saying, 'Oh my god, what the hell is this? We don't like this stuff, let's get rid of it.'"

"Tattoos fade eventually over time, because those cells die every 30 days, the ink is then re-released back into the skin, and new macrophages come along and pick up those released particles."

"Water boils at 100 degrees Celsius. One millilitre of water will form 2,000 millilitres of steam. Steam is very powerful for that reason."

"We are surrounded by water. If we weren't, then laser tattoo removal would not work."

"If you have a little hot ink particles inside a macrophage surrounded by water, the ink will heat up very rapidly, in less than a nanosecond."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

From there, the duo explores different laser options like Q-Switch YAG and IPL, unpacking wavelengths, absorption, and how these tools actually target melanin without causing chaos to the skin. Lisa also shares her real-world treatment tips, including her go-to cooling techniques to keep skin calm and trauma-free.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Before treating any pigmentation, it's crucial to confirm that it is benign. If there are any changes in size, colour, or texture, or if the pigmentation has appeared recently, it should be referred to a medical professional for further evaluation.

Various lasers can be used to treat pigmentation, with the Q-Switch YAG laser at 532 nm being highly effective due to its strong absorption in melanin. IPL (Intense Pulsed Light) is also a viable option, especially for larger areas, but it may carry a higher risk of thermal damage.

When treating pigmentation, practitioners should monitor the immediate response of the skin, looking for signs such as erythema, darkening of the pigment, or frosting. Adjustments in fluence may be necessary based on the observed reactions.

Ice cooling is essential both before and after treatment to protect surrounding skin tissue and minimise swelling. This technique has been shown to reduce pain and improve recovery times for patients.

The approach to treating pigmentation can be more aggressive compared to other treatments like hair removal or vascular lesions. This controlled aggression is necessary to achieve effective results, but it requires careful monitoring to avoid excessive damage.

BEST MOMENTS

"The first thing that if you're going to be treating any sort of pigmentation, you must be clear that it is benign."

"The good thing about melanin is it absorbs light across the whole visible spectrum and even into the near-infrared spectrum."

"I would do a Q-Switch 532. 100%."

"You don't get that thermal damage that you would with an IPL. So it's a different process, different mechanical process."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Different pulse regimes (nanoseconds, picoseconds, femtoseconds) affect how energy is delivered to tissues. Shorter pulses (like nanoseconds) allow energy to be absorbed quickly, leading to higher temperatures in the target area, while longer pulses (like milliseconds) allow heat to dissipate, resulting in lower peak temperatures.

The type of reaction elicited in tissues depends on the pulse duration. Longer pulses tend to produce thermal reactions, heating surrounding tissues, while shorter pulses can create photomechanical reactions, where rapid heating leads to physical disruption of target materials, such as tattoo ink.

To prevent unwanted thermal damage during laser treatments, proper cooling techniques are essential. Cooling the skin and surrounding tissues can mitigate excessive heat generation, reducing the risk of burns and other adverse effects.

When purchasing aesthetic lasers, it is crucial to look beyond marketing claims and focus on technical specifications, such as output power, wavelengths, fluence range, and pulse widths. High fluences are associated with better treatment outcomes.

Effective training for non-physicist clinicians involves breaking down complex physics concepts into tangible, relatable ideas. Using everyday analogies can help clinicians grasp the fundamental principles of laser physics, making it easier for them to apply this knowledge in practice.

BEST MOMENTS

"The shortest ever unit of time that's been successfully measured by scientists was an event that lasted 247 zeptoseconds. This is the time that it took for a photon to cross a hydrogen molecule."

"I didn't think hydrogen atoms were that big because 0.1 nanometers isn't really so small, is it, when you think about it?"

"If you have a long pulse, like in the millisecond regime, then because the heat is escaping during the pulse, we tend to get a thermal reaction."

"Generating too much heat is very easy to do. It's quite hard to be precise because it depends on where the absorbing targets are and how deep they are."

"If they're not giving you the technical spec, it's a bit dubious."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Understanding skin responses during treatments is crucial. Indicators such as erythema (redness) and edema (swelling) provide valuable feedback on how the skin is reacting to various laser treatments.

The appropriate fluence (energy level) for treatments cannot be predetermined without observing the skin's reaction. Practitioners should start at a lower fluence and gradually increase it based on the skin's response.

A certain level of redness and swelling is acceptable and indicates a good reaction. However, excessive redness, bleeding, or broken skin surfaces are signs of over-treatment and should be avoided.

Using ice packs or cooling methods before and during treatments can help manage skin temperature and reduce adverse reactions. Proper cooling can prevent ice burns and enhance treatment outcomes.

Engaging with clients about their experiences during treatments is essential. Asking for feedback on pain levels and observing their skin reactions can guide practitioners in adjusting their techniques for better results.

BEST MOMENTS

"The skin is kind of giving us clues and indicators. It's communicating. It does depend on what you're treating and which technology you're using."

"If you break the skin whilst treating a tattoo or PMU, then you haven't done it right."

"A certain level of redness is good, but if it goes very red, kind of angry red, then that's telling you you've gone too far."

"I want to see it crusty, dusty, red and angry, but no bleeding, never, ever, ever bleeding."

"Reading the skin is a good skill to develop. Take the time and look at the skin's reaction and think, what is this trying to tell me?"

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Skepticism of Neat Cell Device: The Neat Cell picosecond laser pen device is met with skepticism regarding its claims of being a true picosecond laser, as it is likely just an LED or a low-powered laser diode that cannot effectively remove tattoos.

• Lack of Safety Measures: The device does not come with safety glasses, which raises concerns about eye safety, especially since the device emits intense blue light that can cause damage.

• Ineffective Tattoo Removal: Initial tests on the device suggest that while it may cause some disruption to tattoo ink, it also results in significant skin damage and scarring, which may mask the appearance of the tattoo rather than effectively removing it.

• Regulatory Action: The UK government has issued a product safety report banning the Neat Cell device from entering the UK market due to non-compliance with electrical safety regulations, indicating it is considered unsafe.

• Home Use Devices for Hair Removal: While skepticism exists around home-use devices for hair removal, some have been found to be effective when used consistently over time, suggesting that they can complement professional treatments rather than replace them.

BEST MOMENTS

"I am pretty sure this thing is probably not a laser. It's an intense blue light source, which is most likely an LED."

"Imagine at the end of all that you said, so I'd recommend you help. No, no."

"The UK government has issued a product safety report on this NeatSet device and they've stopped it from entering the UK."

"If it looks too good to be true, then it usually is."

"Let us know if you've used the IPL at home devices too."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

The phenomenon of 'popping hairs' or 'jumping hairs' observed during laser treatments does not indicate the efficacy of the treatment. It is primarily caused by steam formation in the hair follicle, which can force superficial hairs out but does not necessarily mean the follicle itself has been effectively treated.

Commonly cited clinical endpoints, such as swollen follicles or erythema (redness), do not guarantee successful treatment outcomes. Successful hair removal can occur without these visible signs, and their absence does not imply ineffective treatment.

As laser hair removal treatments progress, the hair follicles can become synchronised in their growth cycles. This means that after several sessions, more hairs may appear to be growing back at the same time, which can lead to the misconception that the treatment is failing.

The goal of laser hair removal is to induce enough damage to the hair follicle without harming surrounding tissue. Chasing visible reactions like folliculitis can lead to unnecessary tissue damage and is not a reliable indicator of treatment success.

The hair growth cycle consists of different stages (anagen, catagen, telogen), and effective laser treatments primarily target hairs in the anagen phase. Popping hairs are often in the telogen phase, which are not the target for effective hair removal.

BEST MOMENTS

"In Germany, they use the term jumping hairs, which refers to the phenomenon of hairs rapidly exploding or being ejected from the follicle immediately after laser irradiation."

"Popping hairs are not clinical endpoints. It looks really cool, but it’s not a clinical endpoint."

"If you do that and those hairs pop out, that doesn't necessarily mean that the follicle has been sufficiently damaged."

"You want to induce enough damage to do the job, but not so much that you're damaging everything else."

"If you're not getting popping hairs, do not worry. As long as you're getting results and people are happy, you're great."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Fluence, defined as energy per area (joules per square centimetre), remains constant across different spot sizes. However, the total energy delivered varies significantly based on the spot size, with larger spots delivering more total energy.

When light enters the skin, it scatters, which affects the fluence at different depths. The scattering can lead to an increase in fluence just below the skin surface due to backscattering, which can exceed the incident fluence.

Different wavelengths penetrate the skin differently, with red light penetrating deeper than blue or green light. However, the presence of scattering in the skin can alter the effectiveness of these wavelengths.

Increasing fluence at the skin surface raises the temperature in the epidermis, which can trigger pain receptors. Pre-cooling the skin before treatment can help mitigate pain by lowering the baseline temperature.

Understanding fluence is crucial for effective laser treatments, as it directly influences the temperature rise in the target tissue, which is essential for achieving desired treatment outcomes.

BEST MOMENTS

"When you set up your laser or IPL to deliver a particular fluence, then at every point in that spot the fluence is the same, or it should be the same."

"So then how does the small spot work so well? Because it's the fluence that's important, not the total energy."

"The fluence is what drives the process. Fluence is directly responsible for the temperature increase in whatever the target is."

"Isn't it cool though what happens in your skin when you shoot a laser in there? Or a light, not just lasers."

"If you pre-cool the skin before you fire in your light energy, there's a smaller chance of triggering the pain receptors."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Time does not actually "slow down" for an object approaching the speed of light; it appears to slow down to an external observer due to relative motion and frames of reference.

To an external observer, an object (like a spaceship) approaching a black hole would appear to slow down and freeze permanently at the event horizon, never crossing it. However, the person inside the spaceship would simply pass through without noticing the horizon.

The universe is "unfathomable" in size, beyond human comprehension. The current estimate for its total lifespan is potentially less than 50 billion years, which is considered a relatively short time in cosmic terms.

Gravitational waves, tiny ripples in spacetime caused by massive collisions (like black holes), were eventually measured using extremely precise laser interferometry technology.

String theory, the idea that everything is made of vibrating strings of energy, is currently unprovable because we lack the technology to observe or measure these incredibly small units.

BEST MOMENTS

"This is a common misconception out there. Relativity, it's all about relative motion from one person to another person or whatever."

“To me, I can just seal straight on through the black hole's event horizon. I don't see anything, I don't notice that. I'm not even aware that the event horizon is there."

“The way I think about time in general is like a river. To quote the great Doctor Who, it's a ‘wibbly-wobbly thing'."

"We're small creatures living on a small rock in a small part of this smallish galaxy, and it feels so big."

"Gravity is always attractive. Gravity pulls things towards each other. There's no such thing as a negative gravity or repelling."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

An influencer's comments about laser hair removal and pregnancy have caused panic among clients, leading to misconceptions about the effectiveness of treatments.

Hair growth can appear synchronized after laser treatments, making it seem like hair is regrowing when, in fact, dormant follicles may be activated due to hormonal changes or other factors.

Once a hair follicle is effectively destroyed through proper laser treatment, it cannot regenerate. However, if a follicle is only stunned, it may regrow.

Pregnancy can lead to hormonal shifts that may stimulate dormant hair follicles, resulting in increased hair growth in some areas, regardless of previous laser treatments.

It's essential for laser clinics to communicate effectively with clients about the realities of hair removal and the potential for hormonal influences, ensuring that misinformation does not lead to unnecessary concerns.

BEST MOMENTS

"I wanted to put my two cents out there and explain as a laser trainer, laser tech, and a pregnant lady. I’m pretty qualified to talk about this."

"When you kill a hair follicle, it's deed. You cannot grow new follicles. That's impossible."

"It's not new follicles. Laser clinics are not robbing you. This can happen to anybody at any time."

"You could end up seeing potentially more hair or what appears to be more hair than you had previously."

"What Sophie has been saying has been miscommunication. It’s misinformed."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

From AI claiming Mike invented the Ruby laser (spoiler: he didn’t) to the real do’s and don’ts of using AI for laser treatments, Mike and Lisa break it all down with humour and honesty. They also bust a few persistent myths about laser tattoo and hair removal, while reminding listeners why human expertise still matters in a world full of smart machines.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

AI can be beneficial for research in the laser business, providing access to papers and references, but users should verify the information as it can sometimes contain errors, such as incorrect units.

While AI can generate ideas for branding, marketing, and treatment advice, it is essential to approach pre and post-care recommendations with caution, as they may not always be accurate.

There are several myths surrounding laser treatments, such as the belief that lasers burn or scrape the skin to remove ink, or that tattoo removal creams are effective. Understanding the science behind laser technology is crucial.

The effectiveness and safety of laser treatments depend significantly on the operator's training and the quality of the equipment used. Proper training and application are vital for achieving good results.

Users should not blindly trust information from AI or social media. It's important to ask questions and seek clarification on statements, especially when they seem dubious or inaccurate.

BEST MOMENTS

"Even simple things can go wrong with AI. You've got to be careful."

"The myth persists because earlier lasers cause pigment changes, but modern systems can treat darker skin safely with proper settings."

"Don't trust everything you see on AI or social media or anywhere. Trust nobody."

"A Q-switch laser is a Q-switch laser. A YAG is a YAG. So that's silly."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Understanding laser safety is critical for anyone working with lasers or IPL devices, as improper handling can lead to serious eye injuries or other hazards.

An LPA is responsible for assessing the safety of laser environments, ensuring proper safety equipment is used, and verifying that personnel are adequately trained.

Regular checks of safety glasses and laser equipment are essential. Safety glasses must meet specific optical density ratings for the wavelengths used, and equipment should have proper labelling and maintenance.

Local rules regarding laser safety should be dynamic and updated based on changes in equipment, personnel, or regulations. An LPA can help create and maintain these rules.

Laser plume, which is the smoke produced during laser treatments, can contain toxic and carcinogenic substances. Proper ventilation and air filtration systems are necessary to mitigate health risks associated with inhaling these fumes.

BEST MOMENTS

"It's critical. The amount of courses out there and manufacturer's trainings that don't really properly cover it is pretty shocking."

"If laser light can escape and someone's outside and they look in, then there's a small possibility that they could be affected adversely."

"I've heard second babies are easier. I was your second baby. That we know of."

"The problem is that people, when they're buying equipment, they don't know what to look for. It's not their fault."

"You're breathing in dead people's tissue. I don't mean the people are dead. The tissue is dead."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Hair follicles occupy indentations in the skin, with a complex structure that includes the dermal papilla and matrix, which play crucial roles in hair growth and signalling.

The dermal papilla acts as the signalling centre for hair follicles, controlling their growth and degeneration. Disruption of its function could lead to hair loss, making it a key target for effective hair removal treatments.

The concentration of melanin in the matrix of hair follicles is significantly higher than in the hair shaft itself. This means that even with reduced fluence from laser treatments, the matrix can absorb more energy due to its higher melanin content.

The effectiveness of hair removal treatments may depend on the timing of the treatment in relation to the hair growth cycle, particularly targeting the anagen phase when the matrix is fully formed and contains melanin.

The Fitzpatrick scale for skin tones is overly simplistic, as it does not account for the wide range of melanin concentrations within darker skin tones. A proposed new scale includes a "skin tone 7" to better represent this variability.

BEST MOMENTS

"The current thinking is that we have to kill the stem cells which reside in the bulge... is it that simple? Or is there more to it?"

"The dermal papilla is kind of described as the nerve centre, the headquarters. It controls the growth and degrowth of the follicle."

"If you can kill the dermal papilla cells, then you knock out the signalling centre."

"The concentration of melanin in the matrix is significantly greater than the concentration in the hair."

"I think we need to kill both the papilla, which is the nerve centre, and probably also most, if not all, of the stem cells in the bulge."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

It is not possible to "overcool" the hair follicle before a laser treatment, as a dark, melanin-rich hair will still absorb enough energy to reach a destructive temperature, even if the surrounding skin is chilled to 0°C.

The purpose of pre- and post-cooling (e.g., with ice packs, air, or cryo systems) is to cool the skin, not the machine's optics, and is essential regardless of whether you are using a Diode, IPL, Nd:YAG, or Alexandrite laser.

The preferred technique is stamping (one-by-one pulse application) over the gliding SHR method, as stamping allows for a higher fluence, which more effectively raises the temperature of the hair follicle to ensure complete destruction.

It is highly unlikely for a white cotton pad to catch fire with a Q-switched Nd:YAG or Pico laser, even at the highest fluence, because white cotton is highly reflective and has poor absorption of the energy.

Clinic safety involves a daily checking routine, proper training, and having a designated Laser Safety Officer (LSO) on site, but finding a qualified Laser Protection Advisor (LPA) is the best starting point for a new clinic.

BEST MOMENTS

"The cooling is to to negate that temperature build-up in the epidermis and help to reduce pain."

"But my thought on this, why are you shooting anywhere near the bloody pad anyway?"

"The technology really has no bearing on it, because it's got nothing to do with the technology, it's all to do with cooling the skin."

"Buying the equipment, getting the training, getting premises, that's the easy part. The difficult part is is promotions and marketing and getting the clients in."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Mick discusses an early case where a red tattoo pigment unexpectedly turned black after a Q-switched Ruby laser treatment. Mick explains this is a genuine chemical oxidation reaction, a different process from the simple fading of permanent makeup (PMU) inks.

Mike and Lisa emphasise that most lasers on the market are effective, but the key to good results and safety lies in proper training and understanding the technology.

Mick humorously recounts getting sunburned in Italy, despite his reputation for wearing a t-shirt in the pool to protect his skin from UV rays.

The composition of tattoo ink, whether metallic/organic (pre-2000s) or polymer-based (post-2000s), significantly affects how it reacts to laser removal treatments.

BEST MOMENTS

"The red ink all turned black. And I remember him coming back and thinking, 'Oh my God, what is this?' I'd never seen it before."

"So what's happening there is not an oxidation process at all. What's happening is purely the darker inks are fading, revealing the lighter colored inks."

"Don't believe all the flannel that you hear from the sales guys, because they'll tell you anything to sell a machine."

"We will not support any machines that we don't absolutely love."

"The 1064 nanometer wavelength is the most benign wavelength that we use."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Mike Murphy was born in an RAF hospital in Germany and lived in various countries due to his father's military career, including Holland, Singapore, and Northern Ireland. His early curiosity about science and technology was influenced by significant events like the moon landing.

In 1989, Mike and his colleagues established Dermalase, the world's first clinic using Q-switched Ruby lasers for tattoo removal. This clinic became a pioneer in the field, attracting clients from across the UK and even internationally.

The company faced challenges, including a bankruptcy in 1996 due to a premature product launch in the U.S. market. Despite setbacks, Mike continued to innovate and adapt, eventually expanding into training and consulting in the laser industry.

Mike is now focused on training professionals in the aesthetics field, emphasising the importance of proper education and safety standards in using laser technology. He is also working on new research projects and aims to continue contributing to advancements in the field.

BEST MOMENTS

"I was born in an RAF hospital in Germany, because all military bases across the sea are Crown property, so they're part of the UK."

"You could have been Elvis in the laser world, that would be so cool."

"We were the only clinic in the world, apart from the clinic in the hospital. We were the only private clinic at that time."

"I wrote up a thesis to present for PhD and then I read it and didn't like it. I thought this is a pile of sugar."

"You guys introduced aesthetic laser tattoo removal to the UK and the world."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Relaxation time is crucial when considering tattoo removal because the tiny ink particles can lose heat rapidly. This means that the energy from the laser must be delivered in a short enough time to create steam bubbles that help break down the ink.

While picosecond lasers are marketed as superior to nanosecond lasers, both can effectively remove tattoos. The difference in effectiveness may not justify the higher cost of picosecond lasers, especially since nanosecond lasers have been successfully used for decades.

The process of tattoo removal involves heating the ink particles, which leads to steam formation. The explosive force from the steam causes the ink particles to break apart and disperse, making them easier for the body to eliminate.

The pulse width of the laser is significant; shorter pulses (picoseconds) can deliver energy more effectively to create the necessary temperature rise for steam formation. However, nanosecond lasers can still achieve this effect, especially with proper technique.

BEST MOMENTS

"Relaxation time is much more important when you are considering tattoos. These particles are incredibly small, they can be easily down at like 40, 50, 60, 100 nanometres in size."

"If you heat up these ink particles using laser energy, they will lose that energy extremely rapidly."

"The ink gets hot and some of the heat diffuses into the water, creates steam and the macrophages explode."

"I always say it depends on your budget, but also how much money have you got to waste?"

"Sometimes the old stuff is still very relevant because it still works."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Both stamping and Super Hair Removal (SHR) techniques can be effective for laser hair removal, but their success heavily depends on proper application. Incorrect techniques can lead to ineffective results regardless of the method used.

The fluence (energy delivered per unit area) is crucial for both stamping and SHR. Low fluence levels can result in inadequate heat accumulation in hair follicles, leading to poor treatment outcomes.

New claims about lasers being safe for tanned skin are met with scepticism. The skin's response to tanning indicates underlying damage, and treating tanned skin with lasers can pose risks of further damage and ineffective results.

Claims about the effectiveness of SHR and its advantages over stamping should be backed by credible research. The lack of accessible studies supporting these claims raises concerns about their validity.

It is essential to prioritise client safety by advising against laser treatments on tanned skin. Proper healing time should be observed to avoid potential skin damage and ensure effective treatment outcomes.

BEST MOMENTS

"So these things I get sent from different laser techs or people that we've trained, kind of just saying, huh, is this right? And obviously then we have to say, meh. Maybe not."

"If you're doing too big an area, the target is going to be reducing its temperature every time before you get back to it."

"The problem is though, as far as I can tell, most people are not doing it correctly."

"What people have to understand is that when you get a tan, what you are essentially seeing is the result of a damaged skin."

"It's a really dangerous thing to be promoting as new technology. It's not new technology."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• One client experienced prolonged redness on her lower legs after laser hair removal treatments, suggesting a possible mild inflammatory response to the cooling process rather than the laser itself. This highlights the importance of monitoring individual reactions to treatments.

• Another client, who is very sensitive to cold, had a significant reaction after a standard cooling duration. Adjusting the cooling time to less than two minutes still yielded good treatment results, indicating that individual sensitivity should be considered in treatment protocols.

• Labia hairs are noted to be particularly stubborn during hair removal treatments. Many practitioners face difficulties achieving complete removal in this area, which may be due to deeper hair follicles and the unique tissue composition of the labia.

• A case involving a client's tattoo removal revealed that excessive ink density in a specific area led to severe blistering and infection. This suggests that the amount of ink and the depth at which it is placed can significantly affect the healing process and treatment outcomes.

BEST MOMENTS

"The fact that she's seen this for days afterwards is very strange. That kind of suggests there is some sort of mild inflammatory response to the cooling."

"Labia hairs are bloody stubborn. It's a well-known fact in the industry that it's not just a few people struggling with that area."

"If you have an excess of ink put into a particular area, then you're going to have an excess of microscarring."

"I suspect that is most likely down to the very high density of ink in that particular region."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.  

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com 

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

In this episode of Lasers in Skin, Lisa and Mike explain how light scatters in the skin during laser treatments. They uncover the risks of treating tattoos, pigmentation, and permanent makeup (PMU), and debunk the myth that white tape or pencil can safely protect tattoos. Listeners will also hear about Mike’s upcoming experiment on different light wavelengths and what it means for safer, more effective laser procedures.

KEY TAKEAWAYS

• Light scattering in skin – how lasers and light bounce within the dermis, creating risks if not carefully managed.
  

• Risks of treating tattoos – why lasers and IPL near tattoos can cause unintended damage or unwanted changes.
  

• Why distance matters – maintaining a safe distance from tattoos and pigmented areas is critical, with factors like wavelength and skin type influencing the risk.
  

• Permanent Makeup (PMU) concerns – the pigments used in PMU can react unpredictably to lasers, causing colour shifts or skin damage.
  

• Professional assessment is essential – moles and pigmented areas should always be checked by qualified professionals before laser treatments to ensure safety.

BEST MOMENTS

• "The light scatters all over the place, in the dermis and everywhere, and back out of the skin. But the sideways scattering is what could cause problems if you are treating close to a tattoo or to some pigmentation."

• "If you fire a millisecond laser at tattoos, then we do not get the same sort of reaction that you would with a Q-switched or picosecond laser."

• "You can't just laser on top of this and hope it's going to be okay, which I've seen people do just because they're trained to do that."

• "The darker colours, the browns and blacks, they'll absorb quite strongly. The reds and yellows will absorb quite poorly. So what's going to happen is the browns and the black colours, they'll fade preferentially."

• "If we're going to be going over freckles, we might remove these freckles. As long as people are happy with us to do that, then I'm happy to go ahead."

HOST BIOS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.  

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com 

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

This is the time it takes for the temperature of a target (like blood vessels) to drop to 50% of its peak temperature. It is crucial for determining how to effectively use lasers for treatments.

The concept developed by John Parrish and Rox Anderson, which emphasises the importance of matching the laser wavelength to the target's absorption characteristics to achieve effective treatment outcomes.

This is the time required to heat stem cells to a temperature that effectively destroys them. It is more critical than TRT or Thermal Diffusion Time (TDT) when it comes to ensuring the success of hair removal treatments.

The effectiveness of a treatment depends not only on the temperature reached but also on how long that temperature is maintained. Higher temperatures can reduce the necessary time for effective treatment.

Most of the denaturation and chemical processes occur after the laser pulse has finished, meaning that the effects of the treatment can continue even after the energy delivery has stopped.

BEST MOMENTS

"The whole point of the thermal relaxation time calculation was to say, let's confine the thermal energy within the blood so that it doesn't spread out everywhere during the pulse."

"If you're trying to kill a hair follicle, we know that you have to basically kill the stem cells."

"We don't care about TRT. Herein lies the problem. If you're basing your timings on a relaxation time, which is a cooling time of the hair, they are irrelevant."

"The higher the temperature, the shorter the time you need to cook. So at 80 degrees, you might need one millisecond. 90 degrees, you might need 0.1 millisecond."

"Most of the actual chemical process of denaturation and cooking occurs after the pulses, not during."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

The VTCT process emphasised minor details, such as glove changes, which may not reflect real-world practices in clinics. This led to a discussion on the need for a more practical approach in assessments.

The current VTCT syllabus lacks sufficient emphasis on the scientific principles behind laser and light treatments, which are crucial for practitioners. The hosts aim to enhance their course content to provide a more thorough understanding of these concepts.

Proposed regulations for the aesthetic industry in Scotland are being discussed, with concerns about the representation of industry professionals versus the general public in the consultation process. The hosts advocate for regulations that ensure safety without unfairly restricting non-medical practitioners.

There are warnings about training academies that may mislead potential students regarding the qualifications needed under the new regulations. It's essential for practitioners to ensure they receive accredited training that aligns with future regulatory requirements.

Mike and Lisa express a strong commitment to providing valuable training that goes beyond basic requirements, emphasising the importance of thorough education in building confidence and competence among practitioners in the aesthetic field.

BEST MOMENTS

"We need to be more mindful of the regulations because at the moment we live in the wild west. It's crazy what happens."

"The problem that I had was that I wanted to talk about groovy stuff like affluence and wavelengths, but we just spent an awful lot of time talking about gloves and gel."

"We have about 12 to 14 weeks for full duration. It's not just a couple of days and out your door here's your certificate."

"Just because they're medically qualified doesn't mean they automatically know more. That's not the case."

"Be really careful because there are companies out there that are sadly feeding on this and they're loving it because they get vulnerable people."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

The numbers displayed on laser machines, such as millijoules, often do not accurately represent the actual energy output. Proper calibration using a meter is essential to determine the true energy and fluence delivered to the skin.

Changing the spot size of a laser significantly affects the fluence (energy density) delivered to the skin. A larger spot size decreases fluence, which can impact treatment effectiveness, especially for hair removal and vascular treatments.

When comparing laser machines, it's crucial to consider power density (power delivered per unit area) rather than just the total power output. Two machines with the same power density can deliver similar treatment results, regardless of their total wattage.

Different wavelengths are used to target specific chromophores in the skin. For hair removal, red and infrared wavelengths are preferred due to their deeper penetration, while green and yellow wavelengths are effective for treating blood vessels.

Higher fluence levels generally lead to fewer treatment sessions required for effective results. However, the choice of wavelength also affects the necessary fluence, as lower wavelengths can deliver more energy to the target without damaging surrounding tissues.

BEST MOMENTS

"The reality is that those numbers on a lot of these machines are just what I call scale numbers. They don't refer to the actual energy or power or anything that's coming out of the machine."

"If you're using like a 1064 nanometers, because that particular wavelength is the most benign wavelength in the skin. Right. It doesn't do an awful lot of damage."

"If you go from say, say that with a lens the spot size is say five millimetres, right, and you swap over, you put on a glass tip and it's now 10 millimetres. That's doubling the diameter, right?"

"If you're treating hair, the target that absorbs the light is the melanin. The targets we're trying to kill are the stem cells. But the stem cells don't have a chromophore that we can target."

"If you're using huge big spots like 24mm, that's pretty massive, right? Then I would imagine that the maximum fluence you'll get in that spot is fairly low."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Cooling the skin is essential for reducing pain during laser hair removal treatments. Techniques such as using ice packs or air coolers are recommended over numbing creams, which may mask pain but do not address the underlying thermal damage.

There is a significant amount of misinformation in the laser treatment industry, often propagated by salespeople. Various laser technologies can be effective if used correctly, and no single type of laser is universally superior.

Hair regrowth in different colours (e.g., white) after laser treatments is not caused by previous IPL treatments. Instead, it can occur due to the destruction of melanin in the hair follicles, which is a temporary effect.

Both picosecond and nanosecond lasers can effectively treat black ink tattoos. Claims that one type is categorically better than the other for specific colours are often misleading and lack scientific backing.

The term "oxidation" is frequently misused in discussions about tattoo ink reactions. While some inks may change colour due to chemical processes, the idea that white ink will oxidise and change colour when treated with a laser is not supported by evidence.

BEST MOMENTS

"Numbing cream just deadens the sensations of the nerves. It doesn't cool the skin. So you're still going to get thermal damage."

"The fact of the matter is that there are a number of technologies available today that all do a great job if applied correctly."

"It's always been. So you always get salespeople from various companies will tell you any old garbage to make a sale."

"If your melanin is destroyed in the hair and it's bleached, then your hair will become white or grey, but it doesn't really matter because it's a short-term thing."

"Everything works on black. Black is black because it absorbs everything, all the wavelengths, right? So it doesn't matter if it's Pico, Nano or whatever."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Clear and precise language is crucial in discussions about hair growth and laser treatments to avoid misunderstandings and misinterpretations.

The term "paradoxical hypertrichosis" is often misused. It should refer to hair growth in areas that have not been treated with laser, while many are confusing it with stimulated or synchronised hair growth in treated areas.

Treatments like laser hair removal can lead to synchronised hair growth, where previously dormant follicles may start to grow at the same time due to the treatment, rather than indicating paradoxical hypertrichosis.

Terms like "strength" or "stronger laser" are vague and can lead to confusion. It's essential to specify parameters such as fluence, energy density, and power when discussing laser treatments.

The distinction between skin tone and skin type is important. Skin tone refers to the concentration of melanin in the skin, which affects how it reacts to treatments, while skin type (Fitzpatrick classification) is related to UV radiation response and is not relevant in the context of laser treatments.

BEST MOMENTS

"Paradoxical hypertrichosis... basically it's hair growth in an area where you didn't have hair growing before."

"I believe that everybody that is saying they see this, they are definitely seeing something, but I don't know if they're all meaning the same thing."

"You cannot stimulate new follicles, but you can stimulate them into a different phase of growth."

"Skin type is your Fitzpatrick, which is how your skin reacts to ultraviolet radiation."

"Using the wrong language is just a, to me, it's bad language."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Continuous training is crucial in the laser and skin treatment industry to ensure technicians are knowledgeable and skilled in using equipment effectively, which directly impacts client results.

There are significant concerns regarding the quality of training provided at some clinics, leading to poor treatment outcomes for clients, such as excessive sessions without satisfactory results.

If technicians are not achieving good results, the responsibility lies with the management and owners of the clinics, who must ensure their staff are properly trained and equipped to provide effective services.

Misinformation can easily spread within the industry, often from trainers who may not have the correct knowledge, which can lead to practitioners applying incorrect techniques or advice.

When selecting a training provider, it is essential to research their credentials, ask about their training sources, and ensure they have a solid reputation to avoid investing in inadequate training that may not meet future regulatory standards.

BEST MOMENTS

"So yeah, allegedly, what always came out that people believe is what's happening is that technicians in these companies are being either told to do this or just not taught properly."

"If they're not generating good results, then that's the responsibility of the managers and ultimately the owners of the clinic because they're supposed to provide a service."

"It's making people think laser hair removal doesn't work. It's actually giving everybody quite a bad name, which isn't ideal for us."

"You can have the best laser on the planet and if you're not using it correctly, you won't get good results. Simple as that."

"This is just kind of coming into highlighting the importance of training and getting reputable training."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

Lasers operate based on the principle of stimulated emission of photons, a concept introduced by Einstein in 1917. The acronym LASER stands for "Light Amplification by Stimulated Emission of Radiation."

A typical laser consists of a gain medium (which can be a crystal, gas, or liquid), two mirrors (one fully reflective and one partially reflective), and a power source to stimulate the gain medium. The mirrors help amplify the light by reflecting photons back and forth.

For a laser to function effectively, a population inversion must be achieved, where more atoms are in an excited state than in a ground state. This is necessary to ensure that stimulated emission can dominate over spontaneous emission.

Different types of lasers exist, including solid-state lasers (like Nd:YAG and ruby lasers), gas lasers (like CO2 lasers), and diode lasers. Each type has unique properties and applications, with diode lasers being particularly versatile due to their ability to generate various wavelengths by combining different semiconductor materials.

BEST MOMENTS

"LASER means, LASER is an acronym, stands for Light Amplification by the Stimulated Emission of Radiation. In this case, radiation being light energy."

"So wait, why did he invent it? Because he could."

"So coherence basically means that all the photons, they're all doing the same thing, they've all got the same wavelength or frequency, they're all moving in the same directions."

"If you don't have enough electrons in the right metastable state, then the whole thing will eventually just kind of peter out."

"The problem is that some of these drops in energy states will not generate new photons, but they'll generate phonons."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/

KEY TAKEAWAYS

The process involves using lasers to heat tattoo ink particles rapidly, causing them to absorb energy and create steam bubbles that break apart the surrounding cells, allowing the ink to disperse.

The most common lasers used for tattoo removal are Q-switched and picosecond lasers. Q-switched lasers deliver energy in nanosecond pulses, while picosecond lasers deliver energy in shorter, picosecond pulses, which can lead to slightly more effective ink removal.

Frosting, the white or grey appearance on the skin after laser treatment, is often misunderstood. While it can indicate a successful treatment, it is not a necessary clinical endpoint, especially as treatments progress.

The idea that a cracking sound during treatment indicates effective tattoo removal is incorrect. This sound can occur when the laser is used improperly, leading to unnecessary skin damage.

While lasers can technically treat all ink colours, the energy required for certain colours, like yellow, may be too high and could damage the skin. White ink is particularly difficult to remove due to its reflective properties.

BEST MOMENTS

"When you hit a tattoo with laser energy, the ink in the tattoo will absorb some of that energy, will heat up very, very rapidly and will quickly exceed the boiling point of water."

"The lasers we use are either Q-switched, which deliver nanosecond pulses, or picosecond lasers. These pulses are extremely short, and you have to do that to generate the extremely rapid temperature rise."

"I found that, for particle sizes down to something like five microns in size, there wasn't really any significant difference, but below five microns, there was some appreciable difference."

"If they come in for a consultation, they're like, does it hurt? I'm like, well, yeah... it does hurt. Use ice pack cooling to try and reduce the pain as much as we can."

"The problem is that your spot size is so small, your energy density is so high that you will damage the skin. No two ways about it."

ABOUT THE HOSTS

Mike began his career in medical lasers in 1986 with a physics degree and a post-grad in bioengineering. He helped develop the scar-free removal of tattoos using a Q-Switched Ruby Laser in Glasgow, and the world's first IPL system. Known well in the industry for his hard truths, no BS attitude and logical answers. As the author of three books, articles for medical journals, a well read blog, a Laser Protection Advisor and contributor to the BMLA, Mike is the Laser Guru.

Lisa's claim to laser fame is being Mike's daughter. Growing up with lasers and never avoiding a physics lesson from her Dad, it was natural to enter the industry. Leaving a corporate career with a baby to jump into self employed life came with challenges. Despite that Lisa has been well recognised for her teaching style, practical tips, bringing the compassion to the science, and laser mentoring.

Instagram: @dermalase_lasertraining

https://mikemurphyblog.com

https://www.dermalasetraining.com

This Podcast has been brought to you by Disruptive Media. https://disruptivemedia.co.uk/