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Tim Schrader Rodriguez spent eight years trying to "pray out the gay". He modulated his voice. He stopped listening to music with female lead singers. He sat weekly with a therapist who watched him come apart — and said nothing.

Last week, the Supreme Court ruled 8–1 that therapists have a First Amendment right to pursue conversion therapy with their patients, upending a Colorado ban on the practice.

This isn't history, nor is it a Colorado-only case. Bans that advocates spent years winning in state after state will unravel.

Amanda Henderson talks with Tim this week about what eight years inside that world actually felt like — and what it means that the one protected space survivors thought they still had is now gone.

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The better question maybe is what would happen if Jesus's followers believed he really meant what he said — and acted on it? It could change society and, according to Bart Ehrman, it already has. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with Ehrman — a New Testament scholar, agnostic atheist and somewhat unlikely defender of Jesus' most radical teachings — about how Jesus' command to care for people on the periphery shaped the moral "common sense" of the Western world. From public hospitals to disaster relief to orphanages, much of our social safety net can be traced back to Christian invention, he argues. It's a particularly urgent conversation at a time when Christianity is claimed in the name of everything from war to mass deportations to repealing women's right to vote.

GUEST:

Bart D. Ehrman is a distinguished professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill and the author of numerous books on the New Testament and early Christianity, including his latest "Love Thy Stranger: How the Teachings of Jesus Transformed the Moral Conscience of the West."

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In an era of overexposure, perhaps looksmaxxing was inevitable. Clavicular, the face of this buzzy new internet phenomenon, tells us an uncomfortable truth we probably already knew: physical attractiveness gets you places. And, in true manosphere fashion, he is taking that to its transgressive extreme — steroid use, appetite suppressants, bone smashing, jaw surgeries, an incalculable amount of supplements and an obsessive fixation on achieving the perfect body ratios. But to what end? 

On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy examine the looksmaxxers' zealous pursuit of physical "ascension" and its guiding ethos of self-optimization at seemingly all costs. We are joined by RNS national reporter Fiona Murphy to discuss the "inverted asceticism" of the looksmaxxing community and its connections to the broader manosphere. We also get into the other manosphere development of late: Louis Theroux's new documentary, which follows several streamers and podcast hosts displaying a range of bad behaviors in pursuit of clicks. And we ask: what role is religion playing in all this male meaning-making?

GUEST:

Fiona Murphy is a New York-based multimedia journalist and national reporter at Religion News Service. Murphy covers local stories as well as national trends, with a focus on how faith intersects with digital life, identity and community. When it comes to the manosphere, she has written on Looksmaxxing, Catholicism and the new discipline of the body, and Nick Fuentes and the Groyper challenge to Catholicism.

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The Beginner's Bible. The Precious Moments Bible. The Jesus Storybook Bible. Children's Bibles remain an incredibly popular way for parents to teach their kids the faith. Roxy and Katelyn both remember the Bible stories that left a deep impression on them (a female spy! Fake arm hair!). But some of those stories can be confusing or downright scary. And when taught within a legalistic framework, they can turn faith into an obedience training program rather than a relationship with a gracious parent.

That's why our guest on this episode, Meredith Miller, is equipping parents to teach the faith from a posture of curiosity and connection. Miller is a pastor and author of "Wonder: 52 Conversations to Help Kids Fall in Love with Scripture." She previously served as curriculum director for the children's ministry at Willow Creek Community Church. She explains why the Noah's Ark story should not be taught to kids ... and walks us through how she teaches children about the cross in developmentally appropriate ways.

Plus: We break down the top scariest Bible stories for kids.

Guest: 

Meredith Miller is co-pastor of Pamona Valley Church and author of "Wonder: 52 Conversations to Help Kids Fall in Love with Scripture" and Woven: Nurturing a Faith Your Kid Doesn't Have to Heal From. She writes at the Kids + Faith substack.

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In 1971, Time Magazine ran "The Jesus Revolution." In 1998, the New York Times wondered if evangelicals were "on the threshold of a huge spiritual revival." And in 2025, headlines screamed that Gen Z was flocking back to church, that young men were leading a religious resurgence, that Charlie Kirk's death had sparked mass conversions.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy ask: Is any of it actually true?

Spoiler alert: not really.

We're joined by Ryan Burge, political scientist and religion data aficionado, who brings receipts. Turns out Gen Z is the least religious generation in American history. There's no male revival — just a female exodus. And, according to Burge, we're not so much seeing a conservative surge as a hollowing out of moderates as churches polarize along political lines.

But anecdotes remain and there does seem to be something going on in Christian America — even if we wouldn't call it a revival.

Guest:

Ryan Burge is professor of practice at the John C. Danforth Center on Religion and Politics at Washington University in St. Louis. He writes at his substack "Graphs About Religion" and is the author of half a dozen books on religion and politics in the U.S., including his most recent "The Vanishing Church: How the Hollowing Out of Moderate Congregations Is Hurting Democracy, Faith, and Us (Why the Culture Wars Led to Polarization and What We Can Do About It)."

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The Justice Department's seemingly reticent release of the Epstein files has led some prominent figures such as Marjorie Taylor Greene to disavow her ties to President Donald Trump, as many women's cries for justice for survivors grow louder. The MAHA ("Make America Healthy Again") base, led by influencers like Alex Clark, feel betrayed by the administration for letting more toxins such as Roundup to be produced on American soil.

And Trump's women supporters find themselves part of a wide-reaching coalition that includes men like pastor Douglas Wilson, who has wondered aloud whether women should have the right to vote at all.

It's a wild political and cultural moment, one Katelyn and Roxy are eager to tackle this season.

Chapters

0:00 — Intro / 2026 check-in

1:41 — News quiz

8:16 — The Epstein files

18:20 — MAHA moms and the glyphosate betrayal

24:12 — Doug Wilson and the war for women

32:17 — Outro

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We're back! ALMOST.

We recently joined another RNS podcast to look at how Christian womanhood has changed—and not in the ways we could have expected. In this episode of Complexified, host Amanda Henderson talks with us about the shift from 1990s purity culture to today’s trad wives, MAGA moms, and warnings against “toxic empathy.”

The three of us unpack how pandemic burnout, influencer culture, and widening political gender gaps reshaped the ideal Christian woman — and why empathy itself has become a flashpoint.

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We’re sharing a special episode from The State of Belief — a wide-ranging conversation with Religion News Service reporters Jack Jenkins and Adelle M. Banks on the faith angles you don’t hear in the standard year-end news wrap. From immigration and church-state battles to DEI backlash, workplace shocks, and the shock of an American pope, they trace what 2025 revealed about power, justice, and public trust — and what questions we should be asking as 2026 approaches.

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Baby Jesus in zip ties. Mary and Joseph in gas masks. Roman centurions wearing ICE vests. This December, nativity scenes are getting political. Lake Street Church in Evanston, Illinois sparked national attention with their ICE-themed nativity. Sean Hannity called it "woke" and a "war on Christmas." The Daily Show covered it. But it's just one example of clergy around the country participating in immigration activism — getting arrested outside detention centers, accompanying people to immigration hearings, taking food and the Eucharist to migrants too afraid to leave their homes. 

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with one clergy person, Michael Woolf, who has long been involved in immigrant activism and who was recently arrested outside an ICE detention center near Chicago. His church was responsible for the aforementioned provocative nativity and he believes clergy should be willing to put their bodies on the line in this moment. We are also joined by RNS reporter Jack Jenkins, who has been reporting on clergy efforts to resist ICE around the country.

GUESTS:

• The Rev. Michael Woolf is a senior minister of Lake Street Church of Evanston, Illinois, and the author of “Sanctuary and Subjectivity: Thinking Theologically About Whiteness and Sanctuary Movements.” He also has an upcoming book, "Confronting Islamophobia in the Church: Liturgical Tools for Justice," co-written with his wife, Ana Piela.
• Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for Religion News Service and has covered immigration issues and progressive clergy for a decade at least, including in his book on the religious left: "American Prophets: The Religious Roots of Progressive Politics and the Ongoing Fight for the Soul of the Country."

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A new wave of conservative Christian women, many balancing high-powered platforms and hard-charging careers with old-fashioned family values, are gaining influence by promoting traditional gender roles, homemaking aesthetics, and “biblical womanhood.” But beneath the sourdough and matching family outfits is a politically resonant ideology that’s shaping national conversations around gender, faith, and power. On this LIVE Saved By the City episode, recorded in Austin at the Texas Tribune Festival, Katelyn and Roxy host a lively panel to look at what’s behind the rise of these “tradwife” voices, what their popularity says about the cultural moment and why women are leading the charge to rewrite women’s roles.

GUESTS:

Emma Goldberg is a reporter for The New York Times, covering cultural, societal and economic change. Her articles “‘Less Burnout, More Babies’: How Conservatives Are Winning Young Women”  and "The Moms of ‘Momcon’ Are Stressed, but Ready to Party" are essential reading on this topic.

Christine Emba is a senior fellow at the American Enterprise Institute, a contributing writer for the New York Times, and author of the book Rethinking Sex.

Lauren Southern is a former political activist. Her new memoir "This Is Not Real Life" chronicles her experience as an online conservative influencer and how trying to be a tradwife nearly destroyed her.

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What’s your woo level? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy run through their most mystical instincts—angels, ghosts, manifesting, energies, astrology—and ask whether modern Christians have grown a little too allergic to spiritual experience. Then New York Times columnist and UFO enthusiast Ross Douthat joins to talk about the persistence of the supernatural, why he thinks religion is still the most rational bet, and the dangers of patchwork spirituality. A funny, curious, and unexpectedly grounding conversation about what might be lurking just beyond the empirical.

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In the days of the early 'aughts, as Millennials began embarking into the workplace, companies noticed these young employees wanted a mission — wanted to feel connected to the work they were doing, even inspired by it. No longer was a paycheck enough, these bright-eyed twentysomethings wanted purpose. And in Christian circles, this generational trend was sanctified and spiritualized. Careers became callings. Jobs became vocations. And all of it could and should be done for the glory of God and for the common good. Extra bonus points if your deepest passions met the world's deepest needs. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy examine this impulse to elevate paid work to sacred calling — how it has served us and how it has hurt us. We are joined by Karen Swallow Prior as we discuss all the different ways callings can present themselves in our lives. (That's right - callings, plural!).

GUEST:

• Karen Swallow Prior is the 2025-26 Karlson Scholar at Bethel Seminary. She is a columnist for RNS and the author of several books, including her most recent: "You Have a Calling: Finding your Vocation in the True, Good, and Beautiful."

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What does it even mean anymore to age with grace in the era of deep plane facelifts and eyelid surgeries and celebrity procedures that have women looking 40 years younger? On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy wrestle with tensions and fears about aging ... about why our faces just do not look like our faces in the mirror anymore. And we ask: Is "having some work done" becoming inevitable? Instagram and TikTok are full of posts on the dramatic changes these procedures can create — and they are no longer limited to celebrities. Social media is showing us just how accessible — and gosh darn effective — today's cosmetic procedures have become. But at what cost? Certainly at the cost of tens of thousands of dollars. But what else are we losing if we refuse to grow old?

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America has long had a love affair with celebrity — be that of the Hollywood variety or the political ilk. From superstar athletes to celebrity chefs, their woo is not wasted on us. And the history of American Christianity was shaped by men (and a few women) who possessed that irresistible gravitational pull. They held evangelistic revivals, founded denominations and even new religions, and inspired movements. They also sometimes amassed huge amounts of personal wealth, had scandalous affairs and led their followers to commit deadly acts. Charisma has been a powerful tool in the American church and on this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy talk to historian Molly Worthen about how that tool has been used for good and evil ... and how charismatic politicians have begun to fill the void as religion declines.

Plus: we take a personal Rizz Quiz

GUEST:

• Molly Worthen is a professor of history at the University of North Carolina, where she focuses on North American religious and intellectual history. She is the author most recently of Spellbound: How Charisma Shaped American History from the Puritans to Donald Trump.

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We're at the height of spooky season, and what could be spookier than two dudes talking theology? Just kidding, Roxy and Katelyn love the two men who are taking over SBTC this week!John Schmidt, Roxy's husband, returns to talk preaching, Fleabag, and lady editors with Jack Brownfield, who is also an Episcopal priest as well as Katelyn's fiancé. John and Jack discuss their respective callings to pastoral ministry, expectations others may have for priests' wives,  and some relationship tips John and Roxy have learned in their first year-plus of marriage. Jack also recounts his and Katelyn's meet cute, and the boys get both sporty and nerdy by doing a play-by-play with their favorite dead theologians.Don't be scared, Katelyn and Roxy will be back ... after they're done taking over John's and Jack's pulpits.

GUESTS:

The Rev. John Schmidt is the associate rector at Church of the Epiphany in Manhattan. He has broad experience leading teams and communities across difference, especially individuals experiencing food and housing insecurity, and those justice-impacted. He has a deep love of liturgy and people, especially when a community fashions a common life around practices and habits that lead to loving one another and their neighbors well.

The Rev. Jack Brownfield is an associate rector at St Michael's of the Valley outside Pittsburgh. Jack is passionate about preaching and teaching the Good News of God’s free grace toward the world and listening to God’s Word as it is spoken to each of us, here and now. He enjoys connecting theology and history to our lives in the real world, so these subjects are not just shut up in books but  make a difference for how we love and trust God and live with one another.

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It's a tale as old as time: young and zealous evangelical co-eds meet in college, fall head over heels, dream of a life in ministry together ... and also of having sex, something they can't do until they get married. So they do — they tie the knot, in front of friends and family and maybe over the concerns of their parents. God called them together, after all! What could go wrong? 

As it turns out, plenty. Such was the case for our guest today, Jen Hatmaker, who married at 19 and for 26 years lived what seemed an enviable evangelical life. A pastor husband, five kids, a home renovation TV show, a thriving career as an author and women's ministry leader. And then it all fell apart.

Katelyn and Roxy, who experienced a similar story, talk with Jen about the evangelical pressure to marry young, the surprising gifts of single life after divorce, and her ongoing spiritual awakening.

GUEST:

Jen Hatmaker is an author, speaker and podcaster with 15 books to her name, including five New York Times best sellers. She is most recently the author of "Awake: A Memoir." 

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Katelyn and Roxy are what researchers would call "psychedelically naïve." As in, we've never gone on a hallucinogenic trip before. But we're not necessarily psychedelically negative -- we're fascinated by how many people are using psychedelics for spiritual purposes. So when a new study released this summer from Johns Hopkins and NYU on the effects of psilocybin — as in magic mushrooms — on clergy, we knew we had to do an episode on it.

We're guided through this episode by RNS reporter Kathryn Post, who has been talking with the clergy participants of the study for years about their experiences. And, as she notes in her reporting, those experiences were overwhelmingly positive —  96% of the 24 participants retroactively rated one of their psilocybin experiences among the top five most spiritually significant of their lives. We're also joined by one of the clergy participants, Rabbi Zac Kamenetz, who in the years since the study has gone on to found his own organization to support "Jewish psychedelic explorers" around the world.

GUESTS

• Kathryn Post is a Pittsburgh-based reporter for RNS covering topics such as Gen Z spirituality, pop culture and abuse in religious contexts.
• Zac Kamenetz is a rabbi, community educator, artist and aspiring psychedelic chaplain. He is the founder and CEO of Shefa, which works to create spaces for healing and self-discovery in community by integrating Jewish wisdom with psychedelic practices.

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In the wake of Charlie Kirk's very gruesome and very public assassination on September 10, the debate over his legacy has played out in real time and online. The responses to his death revealing just how fractured we've become. Some called him a martyr, modern-day St. Paul. Others pointed to his history of racist and xenophobic rhetoric and wondered why Christians were valorizing someone who had said such hurtful things. Workers were fired for their social media posts. Jimmy Kimmel was suspended. Pastors faced backlash no matter what they said — or didn't say — from the pulpit.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy grapple with how to hold space for both mourning political violence and reckoning with Kirk's troubling legacy. We are joined by New Testament scholar Nijay Gupta, whose viral substack post, "If You Are Elevating Charlie Kirk, Consider Who You Are Crushing Underfoot," wrestled with what it means to remember controversial figures honestly — especially when half the church sees a saint and half sees a devil in disguise.

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From his base in Moscow, Wilson has built a denomination, a network of schools, and a multimedia empire. His church has doubled in size since the pandemic and his denomination has a new church plant in Washington D.C., where Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth has been spotted in attendance.

In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore who Wilson is, why he matters, and what his growing influence reveals about the kind of conservative religion gaining political power in this moment.

GUEST:

Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for Religion News Service and has been reporting on Doug Wilson since 2022.

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The last six weeks have seen a seesaw of scandalous revelations between Hillsong U.S. and Hillsong Australia. The resignation of global senior pastor Brian Houston after revelations of sexual indiscretion. The discovery of allegations of rape by a junior staffer against a former pastor. The departure of several prominent U.S. pastors and Hillsong affiliated churches. A not-so-flattering documentary. And then the leaked report of the Hillsong NYC investigation, which painted a picture of a church leadership rife with abuse, sexual misconduct and secrecy.

This week, Katelyn and Roxy break down the Hillsong breakdown — and explore some of the systemic issues that have seemed to haunt the church from the beginning. Roxy gives a recap of her reporting on Hillsong from the last few years — beginning with the firing of Carl Lentz, hype-priest and Justin Bieber confidante, for his “tequila-drenched love affair.”

And we dig into some questions core to Katelyn's upcoming book on Christian celebrities. Including of course, just how deep can a pastor's V-neck go?

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Ok, but really, as more and more women are single into their late thirties and early forties, the option to have a child through in vitro fertilization becomes a very live question. As much as forty may be the new twenty, the biological timeline for many women still looms large. If you're someone who wants to bear children, waiting for the right partner may feel like a dead end. Or, as our guest today puts it, that's a lot of pressure for a first date. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk to a friend who made the decision to put dating on hold and become a mother on her own. We discuss process, finances, a bit of theology and a lot of love.

GUEST:

• ⁠Annie Parsons⁠ gave birth to her baby boy in early October, just a few days after recording this episode. Everyone is healthy and happy and we are overjoyed for this fledgling family.

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New York's a drinking town. Happy hours. Boozy brunches. Martinis and oysters. The city's social life revolves around artisan cocktails and bubbly toasts and late night dive bars. And while the pandemic may have put a screeching halt to the social side of that life, it didn't stop the flow of booze. Restaurants offered craft cocktails to go, the sidewalks became open carry and delivery drinks were an app away. Drinking went from social to solo and it was during that time that both Katelyn and Roxy began to wonder if all this imbibing was really OK.

On this episode, we examine our relationships with alcohol and the changes we've made since the pandemic. We're joined by Sarah Bessey — a self-described "evangelist" for the sober life — who gave up drinking a few years ago and hasn't looked back since.

GUEST

• ⁠Sarah Bessey⁠ is the author of several books, including ⁠Jesus Feminist⁠ and the co-founder of the Evolving Faith conference. You can read her weekly musings at her substack: ⁠Sarah Bessey's Field Notes⁠.  

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In this episode, we grapple with "the e-word" and why we struggle to claim the evangelical label. Having grown up fully immersed in that culture and going on to dedicate much of our careers to the movement, we examine our disillusionment and disappointment with its trajectory — and where we go next.

The past five years revealed fractures and hypocrisies that betrayed so much of what we — and a generation of millennial Christians — grew up being taught. Now we wonder: Is evangelicalism worth saving?

Plus: We go on an adventure to Washington Square Park to hear what some of our New York City neighbors think about the word "evangelical."

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GUEST:

• ⁠Krista Tippett⁠ is a journalist and Peabody Award-winning broadcaster. She created and hosts the podcast On Being and is the author of several books, including "Becoming Wise." She was awarded the National Humanities Medal by Barack Obama in 2014.

From 2024

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Today, Q — now THINQ Media — feels emblematic of the broader tensions within evangelicalism around how Christians should navigate what they see as an increasingly hostile culture. The "winsome" approach is increasingly seen as naive, cultural engagement has given way to culture war rhetoric, and terms like "negative world" have entered the evangelical vocabulary. On this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy share memories of Q conferences over the years (Portland! Los Angeles! Boston! DC! ... and, finally, Nashville). We examine its decided shift rightward and mourn an importance space that feels lost. We are joined by Collin Hansen, editor-in-chief of The Gospel Coalition and author of a Tim Keller biography, who offers insight into the fractures among Keller's acolytes and the growing pushback against his approach. 

GUEST:

• Collin Hansen serves as vice president for content and editor in chief of The Gospel Coalition, as well as executive director of The Keller Center for Cultural Apologetics. He hosts the Gospelbound podcast and is the author of several books, including "Timothy Keller: His Spiritual and Intellectual Formation. " He is an adjunct professor at Beeson Divinity School, where he also co-chairs the advisory board.

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GUEST:

• Kelsey Kramer McGinnis is a writer, musicologist and educator who holds a PhD from the University of Iowa. She is a regular contributor to Christianity Today and the coauthor of the forthcoming book "The Myth of Christian Parenting: How False Promises Betrayed a Generation of Evangelical Families."

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We all need a vacation and many of us are seeking more than rest or fun on our next getaway. Pilgrimages, retreats, wellness centers — an industry has grown up around the desire to to find transcendence — or at least a bit of mindfulness — while escaping real life. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore the cringe factors inherent in spiritual tourism — selfies in temples anyone? — and the true rewards that sacred travel can offer. We are joined by travel writer and spiritual seeker, Pico Iyer, who has turned his curiosity about the world's religions into a lifetime of finding grace in far-flung sacred spaces.

GUEST:

• Pico Iyer is an essayist and author, perhaps best known for his travel writing. He has written 15 books and appeared in the pages of Time, The New York Times, Harper’s Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, among many others. His most recent book "Aflame: Learning from Silence," recounts his many visits to The New Camaldoli Hermitage in Big Sur, California.

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It's been nearly five years since the murder of George Floyd and the national and global protests it sparked. Since then, we've seen local efforts to stop public schools from teaching about racism in America; withdrawal of federal funding for DEI (diversity, equity, and inclusion) programs; and a broad attitude shift against various progressive causes. How do white Americans, especially white women, stay engaged in the work of racial justice when the headlines have moved on and when 'woke' is considered weak? This week, Katelyn and Roxy speak with Latasha Morrison, founder of Be the Bridge, on pursuing justice for the long haul and what gives her hope amid our anti-DEI moment. We also hear from a longtime Be the Bridge participant, Margo Yoder, on why relationships and proximity to real people matter more than social media posting.

GUEST: Latasha Morrison is the founder of Be the Bridge, a nonprofit that promotes racial reconciliation and education, and author of the bestselling book Be the Bridge as well as the 2024 follow-up, Brown Faces, White Spaces: Confronting Systemic Racism to Bring Healing and Restoration.

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After 12 years as the head of the Catholic church — and the most famous Christian in the world — Pope Francis died on Monday (April 21) at 88. A charismatic reformer, the first Latin American pope and the first Jesuit pope, Francis was beloved well beyond the Catholic church. As world leaders, Catholic faithful and cardinals from around the globe travel to the Vatican this week to mourn Francis, talk of his successor has also begun. The Conclave — made all the more intriguing to many by the recent Oscar nominated movie of the same name — will take place in the coming days and the lists of "papabile," or favored successors, are already rolling in. Katelyn and Roxy are joined by Claire Giangravé, RNS's voice of the Vatican, for a reflection on Francis's legacy and a sneak preview of the Vatican drama to come.

GUEST:

Claire Giangravé is a Rome-based reporter for RNS, covering the Catholic Church and the Vatican.

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GUEST:

• Brian Zahnd is the founder and lead pastor of Word of Life Church in St. Joseph, Missouri. He is the author of eleven books, including his most recent "The Wood Between the Worlds: A Poetic Theology of the Cross."

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As a woman newly wed to a priest, Roxy wonders what those expectations mean for her — and which parts of this role to lean into and which to resist. And Katelyn ... well, Katelyn has some new reasons to care too (listen to find out!). We talk with historian Beth Allison Barr about why the role of pastor's wife has evolved in many denominations to be the primary path of ministry for some women.

Plus: The Millennial Girl Boss's Guide to Being the Pastor's Wife (as cringe as you'd expect!)

GUEST:

• Beth Allison Barr is the James Vardaman Professor of History at Baylor University. She is the author of the New York Times bestselling book, "Becoming the Pastor’s Wife: How Marriage Replaced Ordination as a Woman’s Path to Ministry," as well as, "The Making of Biblical Womanhood: How the Subjugation of Women Became Gospel Truth." She is a pastor’s wife and mom.

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GUEST:

• Lydia Sohn is a minister and a writer, currently serving as the senior pastor of Walnut United Methodist Church and the author of "Here: A Spirituality of Staying in a Culture of Leaving."

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Chapter Markers

0:00 - Do You Know Where You’re Going? (And Why We All Panicked)

3:10 - Truth or Dare: Evangelical Edition

7:00 - What’s the Most Embarrassing Dare You’ve Done?

9:49 - Asking Big Questions: What If None of This Is Real?

12:47 - The Fear of Hell & Writing to Brio Magazine

15:57 - Rapture Trauma: The Ultimate Sleep Paralysis Demon

18:00 - The Bible, Dinosaurs, and Why We Were That Kid at Church Camp

22:17 - If God Is Good, Why Is the World So Messed Up?

26:39 - Evangelicals and the Fear of Questioning Faith

30:34 - Erin Moon Joins to Talk About I've Got Questions

36:12 - Why Have So Many Christians Lost Their Minds?

40:47 - The Biggest Shift in Faith Since Our Youth Group Days

46:17 - What If Asking Questions Breaks Your Faith?

50:55 - Where to Go When You Don’t Know What You Believe

54:42 - Most Googled Questions of All Time (And Our Best Guesses)

55:47 - Outro & What’s Coming Next

👉 Subscribe for more bold conversations on faith, doubt, and the lives we build.

Instagram, TikTok, YouTube: @savedbythecity

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Plus: a sickness story swap and the punishing timeline nobody asked for.

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GUEST:

• Kaitlyn Schiess is a doctoral student at Duke Divinity School studying political theology, ethics, and biblical interpretation. She is most recently the author of "The Ballot and the Bible: How Scripture Has Been Used and Abused in American Politics and Where We Go from Here." She is a frequent co-host at the Holy Post podcast and host of Curiously Kaitlyn.
• Rachel! A listener of SBTC who emailed us to share her own story! We love it - we want more of it!

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GUEST:

• Tiffany Bluhm is an author, speaker, and podcaster with two books under her belt: “The Women We’ve Been Waiting For: A 40-Day Devotional for Self-Care, Resilience, and Communal Flourishing", and "Prey Tell: Why We Silence Women Who Tell the Truth and How Everyone Can Speak Up." Tiffany also serves as executive director of PAX, which provides mentoring and vocational development for Christians of color.

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Plus: Is there an enneagram type for every liturgical season?

GUEST:

• Stephanie Duncan Smith  is a senior editor for HarperOne and the author of "Even After Everything: The Spiritual Practice of Knowing the Risks and Loving Anyway." She is also the creator of Slant Letter, a Substack for writers who want to deepen their craft and do it in style.

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GUESTS:

• The Rev. John Schmidt is the associate rector at The Church of the Epiphany in New York City. He has a Masters of Divinity from Duke Divinity School and is an avid oil painter. Oh yeah, and he's married to Roxy.
• Jonathan Woodward is the producer of Saved by the City and the director of the RNS Audio podcast network. Oh yeah, and he also had roles on such TV series as Buffy the Vampire Slayer, Angel and Firefly, among others.

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GUEST:

• Tim Alberta is a staff writer at The Atlantic and is the author of "The Kingdom, the Power, and the Glory: American Evangelicals in an Age of Extremism."

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GUEST:

• Melissa Moore  is a writer and leader with Living Proof Ministries. She is the co-author, with her mom Beth Moore, of "Now That Faith Has Come," a study on Galatians.

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Learn more about your ad choices. Visit megaphone.fm/adchoices

GUEST:

• Adelle M. Banks is the projects editor and a national reporter for RNS. An award-winning journalist, Adelle is the co-author of “Becoming a Future-Ready Church: 8 Shifts to Encourage and Empower the Next Generation of Leaders.”

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GUEST:

• Jayne Sugg is a New Mexico transplant in New York City. She is a singer and songwriter and a teacher by day. She leads worship and is a member of The Good Shepherd Collective, "a diaspora of musicians who are committed to writing and making music about peace, love, and acceptance." Check out her debut album, Belief Is Hard, wherever you listen to your music!

Songs from Jayne's album are used on this episode with her permission.

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GUEST:

• Nancy French is a New York Times bestselling ghostwriter and now the author of her personal memoir, “Ghosted: An American Story.”

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GUESTS:

• Simran Jeet Singh is is Assistant Professor of Interreligious Histories at Union Theological Seminary and Senior Advisor for the Aspen Institute’s Religion and Society Program, an RNS columnist, and author of the book “The Light We Give: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life.”
• Richa Karmarkar is a RNS national reporter covering all things Hindu. She is a graduate of Columbia University with Master’s degrees in Religion and in Journalism. She also holds three Bachelor’s degrees in Religious Studies, History, and Journalism from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.
• Nancy French is a New York Times bestselling ghostwriter and now the author of her personal memoir, "Ghosted: An American Story."

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Plus, we go on an eras tour through our various Christian phases.

GUEST:

• Eliza Griswold is a Pulitzer Prize winning journalist and poet. She is a contributing writing for The New Yorker and directs the Program in Jouranlism at Princeton University. She is the author of "Circle of Hope: A Reckoning with Love, Power, and Justice in an American Church."

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So, here goes, why did JD Vance's comments about how childless cat ladies are ruining America hurt our feelings? You could probably guess but wouldn't it be more fun to listen to the episode?

Plus, some summer reminiscing. And Katelyn and Roxy ask the church: how are you elevating and including the childless (cat ladies or otherwise)? 

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In this episode, Tyler and journalist/critic Sam Thielman explore Hillbilly Elegy and chart Vance's strange, subsequent journey to becoming Donald Trump's running mate. 

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SBTC diehards will likely remember Roxy and Katelyn’s great conversation with Annie Parsons last fall. Annie shared her journey of becoming a single mother by choice. At the time, Roxy and Katelyn agreed they wouldn’t likely go down the path as single people.

We reserve the right to change our minds (and marital status!).

This week, Katelyn wonders aloud what it might be like to become a mom as a single person. Once again she’s joined by author and podcaster Elizabeth Oldfield, who reminds us all that we’re called to relinquish some control and let life unfold for the mysterious gift it is. (Bonus: We have POETRY.)

GUESTS:

• The Beaty Brain Trust: Richard Clark; Sarah Scherf; Chuck DeGroat; E. Karen and Tim Beaty; Roxy Stone
• Elizabeth Oldfield is author of the book Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times and hosts The Sacred podcast

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Maybe it’s a product of living in NYC, but it seems like you can’t walk outside your door these days without dropping mad cash.

It has recently occurred to Katelyn that, whatever big life decisions she makes, they will assuredly require some financial investment. Experts say by age 40, you should have an emergency fund, be debt-free, and have a retirement nest egg. Gulp.

That’s why episode 3 of the SBTC summer series, “Tell Katelyn What to Do with Her Life,” is about the thing we’re not supposed to talk about (besides religion and politics): money. Thankfully, there’s nothing more Amber Hacker, CFO of Interfaith America and fellow RNS podcast host, likes to discuss. Katelyn also fields financial advice from her 4-year-old nephew and brings back Elizabeth Oldfield for a spiritual slant on the topic the Bible talks about the most.

GUESTS:

• Luther Beaty is unofficial CEO of the Beaty family and is passionate about Legos, fighting baddies, and hanging out with his Aunt Kiki
• Amber Hacker, aka the “Budget Hacker,” is CFO of Interfaith America and co-hosts the podcast Money, Meet Meaning
• Elizabeth Oldfield is author of the book Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times and hosts The Sacred podcast

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She’s been on the apps. She’s been to church events. She even went to a speed dating mixer with Roxy back in the day. So maybe it’s time Katelyn mix up her straight in her search for romance. Manifesting—the belief that our thoughts determine our futures—grows out of the positive thinking movement and has a distinctly American bent. Is it all hooey, or is there something to it?

In episode 2 of our SBTC summer series, Katelyn asks the Beaty Brain Trust for tips and tricks on finding romance. Then she hits the streets of New York City to see if this whole manifesting idea has any merit. (Hint: It ends in a bar called “Up Stairs,” with a free drink and some chicken tendies.) She also welcomes back Elizabeth Oldfield for a conversation on finding God amid longings deferred.

GUESTS:

• The Beaty Brain Trust: Richard Clark; Chuck DeGroat; Sarah Baldwin Scherf; E. Karen and Tim Beaty; and Roxy Stone

• Elizabeth Oldfield is author of the book Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times and hosts The Sacred podcast

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A milestone birthday is a great time to reflect on the life you’ve built and the person you’re becoming and want to become. That’s what this SBTC special summer series is all about. We’re calling it: “Tell Katelyn What to Do with Her Life.”

Katelyn has gathered the Beaty Brain Trust to help her find answers in four key areas of discernment. This first week, she’s asking, “Where should I live?” She’s joined by family and friends as well as author and podcaster Elizabeth Oldfield (who has the best British accent) to imagine what life might be like beyond New York City, and how to build a rich life with others wherever you end up.

GUESTS:

• The Beaty Brain Trust: Richard Clark; Chuck DeGroat; Sarah Baldwin Scherf; E. Karen and Tim Beaty; and Roxy Stone
• Elizabeth Oldfield is author of the book Fully Alive: Tending to the Soul in Turbulent Times and hosts The Sacred podcast

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When you're married, these are the expected role of the spouse, but that's not the reality for many of us today. And maybe it was always too much for one person to bear anyway. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy take another look at the early church in Acts and ask: What if they had it right all along and why have we so persistently ignored their model?

Plus, we talk with Rhaina Cohen and imagine what it could look like to elevate the role of friendship in our lives.

GUEST:

• Rhaina Cohen is a journalist based in D.C. and the author of the bestselling book "The Other Significant Others: Reimagining Life With Friendship at the Center," and a producer and editor for NPR’s "Embedded."

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GUEST: 

• Rich Villodas is a life-long New Yorker and the lead pastor of New Life Fellowship in Queens, a multiracial church with more than seventy-five countries represented in its pews. Rich is the author of several books including the forthcoming, "The Narrow Path: How the Subversive Way of Jesus Satisfies Our Souls."

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In this episode, Katelyn joins Tyler to discuss Captivating, John and Stasi Eldredge's attempt to do Wild at Heart for girls. We dig into the flipside of the evangelical gender binary of the early '00s to explore what the Christian Macho Man playbook meant for all the damsels they were supposed to be rescuing. Also: quite a bit more Lord of the Rings content than we expected! 

APOCRYFUN returns, now as a monthly series as part of the expanding Saved By the City Auditory Multiverse! On each episode of this show, we talk about a popular, influential — or at least lucrative — Christian book from the 90s or 2000s (you know, our era). We discuss how the book shaped American Christianity, our own personal faith journeys, and how it has aged in our current dystopian Christian Nationalist hellscape.

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On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy bring you all the hot takes from the world of Religion News Association. And believe you me, there are some real spicy stories to tell. We've got Julie Roys, from the Roys Report, talking investigative reporting on scandalous religion. Kate Shellnutt, of Christianity Today, with a daring provocation. And Sarah Riccardi-Swartz, professor of religion at Northeastern University, delivering the receipts on Eastern Orthodoxy in the manosphere.

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For the past three years, the global Catholic Church has been undergoing a period of discernment. One of the main issues of contention? Women's ordination.

Given our interest in women's leadership in Protestant churches, we've been very curious how that conversation happens on the Catholic side. And now that we seem to have some clarity on where the Church will land on the issue, at least in the near term, we wanted to have RNS's Vatican reporter, Claire Giangravé, give us the inside scoop.

Plus, some popcorn with the pope.

GUEST: 

• Claire Giangravéis a Rome-based reporter for RNS, covering the Catholic Church and the Vatican.

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On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy have a lot to discuss. Like how a certain subset of evangelical Christians decided purity culture was for the birds and swapped it for "real American beauty" (aka: big boobs, apparently?). Or how the KJV is the best complement to the American Constitution (ironic, no?). 

But, really, we're here to talk limits — and why we're embracing them — with friend and author, Micha Boyett. 

GUEST:

Micha Boyett is an author, youth pastor, podcaster and Down syndrome advocate. She is the author of the new book "Blessed Are the Rest of Us: How Limits and Longing Make Us Whole" and host of the podcast "The Slow Way" and co-host of "The Lucky Few."

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Parents being a part of the dating or courting or marriage process is a pretty old idea that has a history in most cultures. But we’ve dropped it almost completely in the U.S. in favor of finding true love ourselves. In fact, our families — and our churches and our communities and our friends — mostly avoid meddling in our dating lives at all. When did dating get so anonymous? And what have we lost along the way? Those are the questions Katelyn and Roxy tackle in this week’s episode. And they’re joined by Richa Karmarkar, RNS’s Hinduism reporter, who gives a little peek into the revival of Indian matchmaking in the diaspora — with an American twist.

GUEST:

• Richa Karmarkar is a RNS national reporter covering all things Hindu. She is a graduate of Columbia University with Master’s degrees in Religion and in Journalism. She also holds three Bachelor’s degrees in Religious Studies, History, and Journalism from the University of Wisconsin-Milwaukee.

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GUEST:

• Krista Tippett is a journalist and Peabody Award-winning broadcaster. She created and hosts the podcast On Being and is the author of several books, including "Becoming Wise." She was awarded the National Humanities Medal by Barack Obama in 2014.

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Would you talk politics on a first date? Nope. No, definitely not. What about on a 10th? Heck no. In this economy? Americans are not happy with the political landscape at the moment and the general mood going into the 2024 election is, to put it mildly, dread. We're exhausted and this presidential race is a rinse and repeat cycle that it seems no one really wants. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy wade into the shark infested waters of partisan politics — and, we ask, did we go wrong somewhere? Author Michael Wear joins us to say: yes, we did. But maybe not where you think. Wear challenges us to a more soulful politics that, gasp, takes Christianity seriously.

GUEST:

• Michael Wear is the founder and president of The Center for Christianity and Public Life. He was a former White House staffer under the Obama administration and is the author of "The Spirit of Our Politics: Spiritual Formation and the Renovation of Public Life."

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As marriage has become the end-all, be-all relationship, friendships have been relegated to the "nice to have" category. But at a time when loneliness is being labeled an epidemic, we wonder if this paradigm hasn't stranded us all on islands of our own making. Katelyn and Roxy look at the significant role friendships have played in our lives — especially as single adult women — and ask how we can continue to cultivate intentional community. We are joined by Laura Tremaine (whose husband is definitely not her best friend) for a look at how different types of friends can contribute to our lives (and us to theirs!). Plus, the 10 things we learned about friendship from TV shows set in NYC.

GUEST: 

• Laura Tremaine is the author of "The Life Council: 10 Friends Every Woman Needs" and is the host of the podcast, "10 Things To Tell You."

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On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy recount their brushes with the evangelical bro code — that malignant workplace milieu of religion mixed with patriarchy mixed with entitlement. We discuss the nearly two hundred responses women sent to Katelyn on the topic and unpack the Three B's of the Evangelical Bro Code: Breadwinner Bias, The Billy Graham Rule and Bullying. In the end, we wonder: should women even work in male-led evangelical spaces? Is it worth it?

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The wellness industry has scope creep. Is it about health? Self-care? Spirituality? Mud masks? Yes, yes, yes, yes — and so much more. One thing it all seems to have in common though is that it costs money. Marketed primarily to women and promising solutions to every woe, wellness is more in the category of faith than science, but that doesn't keep millions of Americans from seeking their salvation in it ... to the tune of $4.4 trillion a year. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss the appeal of wellness products and the promises they offer — and why they inevitably fall short. Plus, we hear from guest Rina Raphael who, to her surprise, found that organized religion has the corner on the wellness market.

GUEST

• Rina Raphael is a journalist writing on health, wellness, tech, and women’s issues. She is the author of the recent book "The Gospel of Wellness: Gyms, Gurus, Goop, and the False Promise of Self-Care."

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Did you ever think Rob Reiner — director of such favorites as "When Harry Met Sally," "Princess Bride" and "Spinal Tap" — would make a movie about Christian nationalism? Inconceivable, right? Well, that word doesn't mean what you think it means and yes, he did. The documentary, "God & Country," directed by Dan Partland and produced by Reiner, is based on the book "Power Worshipers" by Katherine Stewart and features a who's who of Christian thinkers (left, middle and slightly right of the ever-shifting center).

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk to Partland and Reiner about why Christian nationalism is, in fact, distinct from Christianity. And we wonder when an American flag next to the pulpit crosses over into the danger zone. 

GUESTS:

• Dan Partland is a veteran documentary producer and director. He has won two Emmys, for American High and Intervention.
• Rob Reiner is the acclaimed director for many of America's favorite films, including "When Harry Met Sally," "Princess Bride" and "Stand By Me."

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On each episode of this show, we talk about a popular, influential — or at least lucrative — Christian book from the 90s or 2000s (you know, our era). We discuss how the book shaped American Christianity, our own personal faith journeys, and how it has aged in our current dystopian Christian Nationalist hellscape.

In this episode, Roxy reads Left Behind for the first time and reports back to Tyler. We dig into a word salad of eschatological terms and an absolute feast of evangelical 1990s tropes — Californians and their new age mumbo jumbo, amirite? — as we look at the legacy of this apocalyptic juggernaut on evangelicalism and its politics.

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On each episode of this show, we talk about a popular, influential — or at least lucrative — Christian book from the 90s or 2000s (you know, our era). We discuss how the book shaped American Christianity, our own personal faith journeys, and how it has aged in our current dystopian Christian Nationalist hellscape.

In this episode, Tyler and Roxy wonder who is the most hedonistic of them all — like, in a Christian sense. In 1986, John Piper wrote Desiring God and introduced the American church to "Christian hedonism," a phrase that has not lasted nearly as long as his famous farewell to Rob Bell. Even so, it was a book that loomed large over Christian publishing and launched Piper as an early voice in the neo-Reformed space.

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On each episode of this show, we talk about a popular, influential — or at least lucrative — Christian book from the 90s or 2000s (you know, our era). We discuss how the book shaped American Christianity, our own personal faith journeys, and how it has aged in our current dystopian Christian Nationalist hellscape.

In this episode, Tyler and Roxy travel back in time to an era of 5 step growth strategies, acronyms for all things and Hawaiian shirts. AKA Southern California in 2002. It's the year the mega-bestseller Purpose Driven Life hit the shelves and the pews — and everywhere in between — offering a message to counteract middle class ennui and promising eternal significance to boot. How does this apolitical, seeker-sensitive, self-help influenced approach stand up now?

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On each episode of this show, we talk about a popular, influential — or at least lucrative — Christian book from the 90s or 2000s (you know, our era). We discuss how the book shaped American Christianity, our own personal faith journeys, and how it has aged in our current dystopian Christian Nationalist hellscape.

In this episode, Tyler and Roxy become the men God created them to be with Wild at Heart, John Eldredge’s 2001 bestseller that challenged dudes to rock for Jesus and destroy anyone who got in their way. Squint just a little and you can see the direct through line from this book to modern evangelical ideas around gender, masculinity and Jordan Peterson.

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On each episode of this show, we talk about a popular, influential — or at least lucrative — Christian book from the 90s or 2000s (you know, our era). We discuss how the book shaped American Christianity, our own personal faith journeys, and how it has aged in our current dystopian Christian Nationalist hellscape.

This episode, Tyler and Roxy move into the liminal faith space of Blue Like Jazz, Donald Miller’s 2003 word-of-mouth bestseller that introduced young Gen Xers and elder Millennial evangelicals to the idea of embracing doubt, being OK with not knowing everything, drinking beer and also Mark Driscoll.  

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Every year, we all get a little excited for what a new start could bring — who could I be this year? Surely this year, I'll do the thing. Or stop doing the thing. Or change everything. Right?

When it comes to making goals, setting intentions, naming desires, we're as all-in as anybody ... but we also have a healthy dose of skepticism when it comes to the marketing machine that self-help has become. Somehow, we doubt all the wisdom we need is just a scroll away on Instagram. This week, Katelyn and Roxy share the advice that's actually worked and talk with entrepreneur Liz Forkin Bohannon, who swears by "dreaming small" and "owning your average." 

GUEST

• Liz Forkin Bohannon is the founder and CEO of Sseko Designs, a socially conscious fashion brand, the chief growth officer of Noonday Collection, and the author of "Beginner's Pluck: Build Your Life of Purpose and Impact Now." Check out her "Plucking Up" podcast, as well.

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The holidays are hard for the grieving. This year, as Roxy and her family walk through their first Christmas without her dad, we wanted to do an episode on what has helped get them through. Well, who has helped really. This is an episode on the power of community and friendship when life hands you loss. Katelyn and Roxy are also joined by J.S. Park, a hospital chaplain who has counseled thousands of patients and their families through terminal illnesses, devastating diagnosis, and tragic losses. Plus, a special drop-in from friend of the podcast, Jonathan Merritt.

GUEST:

• J.S. Park is a hospital chaplain and author of of The Voices We Carry. He is working on a econd book, due out in May 2024.

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Before there was New York City, both Katelyn and Roxy flirted with Nashville. The draw was real: deep friendship, like-minded value systems, shared faith, the prospect of financial stability. But something never quite clicked. Nashville felt maybe a little ... too comfortable, too safe, even a bit stifling. In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy imagine what could have been. We also do a deep dive into who Nashville has become in our years apart — and how choosing New York City has changed us.

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This week, we ask ourselves: would we do mushrooms for research? Plus, a journey from Kansas to Tennessee to California and their multiple misbehaving men in ministry. Katelyn and Roxy discuss the similarities and patterns present in congregations where clergy can get away with almost anything.

And we're joined by guest Gloria Purvis, a Black Catholic scholar who lost her job at a prominent Catholic radio network in 2020 after speaking out about the killings of unarmed Black Americans. Among other things, she discusses why racial justice should be an extension of the church’s holistic pro-life ethic.

GUEST:

• Gloria Purvis is a Catholic commentator and host of the Gloria Purvis Podcast with America magazine and media.

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Or, as one woman put it to our guest today, "men are in their flop era." Men are lagging behind women in almost every measure of success today — from mental health, to education levels, to employment, to sexual satisfaction. What's going on? Katelyn and Roxy are joined (once again!) by columnist and author Christine Emba to discuss this masculinity crisis — and why it should matter to women. 

Plus: a dudely data dump.

GUEST:

• Christine Emba is a columnist and member of the editorial board at The Washington Post, where she wrote her viral summer column and topic today's episode: "Men are lost. Here’s a map out of the wilderness." She is also the author of the book "Rethinking Sex: A Provocation."

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Ok, but really, as more and more women are single into their late thirties and early forties, the option to have a child through in vitro fertilization becomes a very live question. As much as forty may be the new twenty, the biological timeline for many women still looms large. If you're someone who wants to bear children, waiting for the right partner may feel like a dead end. Or, as our guest today puts it, that's a lot of pressure for a first date. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk to a friend who made the decision to put dating on hold and become a mother on her own. We discuss process, finances, a bit of theology and a lot of love.

GUEST:

• Annie Parsons gave birth to her baby boy in early October, just a few days after recording this episode. Everyone is healthy and happy and we are overjoyed for this fledgling family.

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For a very long time, spending time with God felt a bit like a chore to be checked off. Remember quiet times? One year Bible reading plans? On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discussing finding rhythms and rituals that actually work for connecting with God — no guilt attached. And, bonus, actually became morning people along the way. We can't believe it either! Plus, Karen Wright Marsh helps us find inspiration for our daily devotions from the lives of the saints.

GUEST:

• Karen Wright Marsh is the founding director of Theological Horizons, a ministry at the University of Virginia that hosts lectures, spiritual studies, dialogues, and mentoring initiatives. She is the author of Wake up to Wonder.

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Inspired by these words of his father, our guest today has been working to bring peace in the Holy Land since the early 2000s. The last few weeks have been an onslaught of horrifying news from Israel and Gaza — thousands upon thousands dead, hundreds held hostage, hundreds of thousands displaced. And, here, in America a rush to make sense of it — to clearly name the good guy and the bad guy, to further entrench lines in the sand that are already so deep. Amid the complexities of what many have called an "intractable problem," Katelyn and Roxy look to Greg Khalil, co-founder of Telos Group, an organization that insists you can be pro-Israeli, pro-Palestinian, pro-American and pro-peace.

GUEST:

• Greg Khalil is president and co-founder of Telos Group and an adjunct professor at Columbia University’s Graduate School of Journalism. Before founding the Telos Group, Greg lived in Ramallah, the West Bank, where he advised the Palestinian leadership on peace negotiations with Israel. Visit telosgroup.org for a list of resources on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict.

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Church, God, Christianity — they made up a core part of our identity as kids. In other words, we definitely had a Jesus Island. And, yes, that's a reference to Pixar's highly relatable "Inside Out." This episode of the podcast is full of them. Katelyn and Roxy plumb the depths of their childhood faith and discuss how those core memories continue to shape their faith today (or not!). We are joined by Esau McCaulley who shares some of his core faith memories as a kid, as well as the expectations put on black Christians and how the faith of his forebears set him on the path he’s on today.

GUEST:

• Esau McCaulley is associate professor of New Testament at Wheaton College and a contributing opinion writer for The New York Times. He is the author of the recent memoir "How far to the Promised Land: One Black Family's Story of Hope and Survival in the American South," and "Reading While Black: African American Biblical Interpretation as an Exercise in Hope."

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Recent internet pile ons have made it clear there are a whole lot of people out there — including some academics and sociologists, as well as all the incels — who believe single women are ruining society. Not an exaggeration. Marriage rates are down, birth rates are down, men are reporting all time lows in mental health and happiness — especially single men — and it's all because women have just gotten too picky. Or that they prefer cats and shakshuka to marriage, or something.

In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy take on some perplexingly persistent myths about single women (cat ladies? career women? cold fish?) and why they've taken hold in Christian circles.

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Our first guest for season six has us thinking about institutions. An exciting lead for a season opener, you say? It is! In part because this guest now leads an institution, Christianity Today, that both Katelyn and Roxy have some history with. But, not too long ago, he was an SBC bigwig — the president of its Ethics and Religious Liberty Commission — before, well, a lot of things went down. In 2015 ... and 2016 ... and pretty much every year after that. Check out our extensive coverage at RNS if you somehow missed it all and are curious.

On this episode, we talk to Moore about why he left the SBC in 2021; how he thinks of his own legacy in that world, including the question of complicity; and trying to lead a Christian institution when it’s tearing apart at the seams.

GUEST:

• Russell Moore is editor in chief of Christianity Today and is the author of "Losing Our Religion: An Altar Call for Evangelical America."

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It's not everyday Saved by the City hosts Katelyn and Roxy get invited to be on documentaries, but it is every Hillsong documentary. The latest documentary treatment of the global megachurch’s descent into scandal recently premiered on FX and Hulu. And it featured our very own Ms. Beaty with some real zingers.

It also featured Carl Lentz. Like a lot of Carl Lentz.

The disgraced former pastor of Hillsong NYC took center stage once again and not everyone is happy about it. We talk with Janice Lagata, a former volunteer at Hillsong in Manhattan and fellow interviewee for the documentary, about how she felt after watching and why it prompted her to write an open letter to the director.

GUEST:

• Janice Lagata is a musician, writer and host of two exvangelical podcasts: "God Has Not Given" and "Bad Words."

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A lifetime of Bible reading and the women who surrounded Jesus still feel so flat, so much a part of the flannel graph background. Why? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore how their perceptions of the women in the New Testament were formed and why it's still so difficult to conceive of them as real, three-dimensional people. They are joined by New Testament scholar, Nijay K. Gupta, who offers more than a few clues about how and why the women around Jesus became side characters.

GUEST:

• Nijay K. Gupta is professor of New Testament at Northern Seminary and author of several books, including his newest, "Tell Her Story: How Women Led, Taught, and Ministered in the Early Church."

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We'll admit, a podcast episode all about our personalities might be a bit self-indulgent. But also fun! So bear with us as we dive headfirst into the various and sundry methods for categorizing oneself.

This week, Katelyn and Roxy go old school (Myers-Briggs), new school (StrengthsFinder) and a little woo-woo (Enneagram, just kidding, don't come after us). Plus, a journey into the desert with our spiritual guide — and podcast producer — Jonathan Woodward. 

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When it comes to women in ministry, the gains have been ever so gradual. And at the top levels of leadership — from seminary faculty and deans to senior clergy positions — women seem to have hit a wall. Fewer than 25 percent of seminary faculty and deans are women, as are 11 percent of presidents, according to the Association of Theological Schools.

This week Katelyn and Roxy are joined by two of those rarities — the Rev. Drs. Lakeesha Walrond and Serene Jones — who have shattered plenty of stained glass ceilings in their careers. As seminary presidents in New York City, the two are partnering together, hoping to offer more opportunities for future faith leaders. We talk to them about the realities of ministry today, the stakes women in seminary face and why we should actually be worrying about the men.

GUESTS:

• Rev. Dr. LaKeesha Walrond is the first Black woman to serve as president of New York Theological Seminary and a preaching pastor at First Corinthians Baptist Church NYC.
• Rev. Dr. Serene Jones is the first woman to serve as president of Union Theological Seminary and the author of "Call It Grace: Finding Meaning in a Fractured World."

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Is an essential project of a daughter's life trying to understand her mother? On this episode of the podcast — on this week of Mother's Day — we reflect on the lessons we learned from our moms, how we saw them as teens, how we see them now (SPOILER: it's changed). Plus, we are joined by Marcie Alvis Walker in a wide ranging conversation about the power of motherhood — for good and ill — and the generational legacies we carry as daughters who sometimes become mothers.

And, you might have guessed it, an appearance by Karen & Sharon themselves!

GUESTS:

• Marcie Alvis Walker is the author of the new book “Everybody Come Alive” and is the creator of the popular Instagram account Black Coffee with White Friends.
• E. Karen Beaty is a retired children’s librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn’s mom.)
• Sharon Stone is a retired pre-K and Kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years’ experience. (And she’s Roxy’s mom.)

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From the games that were downright gross to the Mountain Dew fueled lock-ins, youth group culture was its own special kinda weird. But was it good?

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy reminiscence on the lessons we learned as teens in our church basements (we shared a certain oldest daughter perfectionism that youth group culture seemed to heighten, even spiritualize). We're joined by author and researcher Sheila Wray Gregoire who shares some of her findings on how youth group teachings affect teen girls well into adulthood — for better and worse.

Plus: news from the Brio beat!

GUEST:

• Sheila Wray Gregoire is the author of several books including "She Deserves Better: Raising Girls to Resist Toxic Teachings on Sex, Self, and Speaking Up," a followup to the "The Great Sex Rescue: The Lies You've Been Taught and How to Recover What God Intended." You can find more of her work at BareMarriage.com.

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Who are the evangelicals? It's a contested question with a long history of answers — answers that depend largely on who is holding the mic at any given time.

In this episode of the podcast, Katelyn and Roxy examine our own roles within the traditional gatekeeping institutions of evangelicalism and reflect on how we feel about them now. We are joined by Isaac B. Sharp for a tour of evangelicalism's defining decades and how the movement was shaped in part by who was kicked out.

GUEST:

• Isaac B. Sharp is the author of the book "The Other Evangelicals: A Story of Liberal, Black, Progressive, Feminist, and Gay Christians — and the Movement that Pushed Them Out." He is a visiting assistant professor at Union Theological Seminary and the director of online and part-time programs there.

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This week, Katelyn and Roxy dive face-first into the prickly subject of cosmetic procedures. They're not just for Hollywood stars and Dallas housewives anymore. But just because everyone is getting a little work done, should we? Would the Proverbs 31 woman — the biblical model for all things feminine — go under the knife? The laser? The needle?

All this, plus skin care guru Jamie B. Golden on the do's and don'ts (and maybes) on your dermatologist's extensive/expensive menu.

GUEST:

• Jamie B. Golden is a podcaster (give a listen to "The Bible Binge" and "The Popcast") and a skin care enthusiast (check out her 10-step skin care routine).

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$150,000 on a three-day luxury retreat in Cancun. $37,000 on flowers. $13,000 on high tea. $16,000 on custom skateboards.

These are just a few of the line items recently uncovered in Hillsong financial statements. Last month, a leader in Australia’s Parliament, armed with 17 binders full of documents, accused Hillsong leaders of breaking financial laws in Australia and beyond, specifically of fraud, money laundering and tax evasion.

We figured: we've covered sex and power at Hillsong, seems about time to do money. On this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy take a look at the sprawling implications of Hillsong's newest scandal — not just for the Australian megachurch, but for wealthy pastors everywhere.

When it comes to luxury in the house of the Lord, turns out we've got a lot of thoughts.

Plus, the results of a Twitter poll — because you all had plenty to say too!

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On this episode, which drops amid Holy Week, Roxy and Katelyn reflect on the beauty, meaning, and mystery they have found in the church liturgy. Instead of feeling rote, the rhythms and prayers of the church have become nourishing for us. Kind of like a favorite meal. They are joined by the Most Rev. Michael Curry, the presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, the American branch of the Anglican Communion. He talks about his approach to evangelism, his hopes for the church as it could be facing schism, and how he tries to ask 'what would Jesus do?' even when the answer is rather annoying.

GUEST: The Most Rev. Michael Curry is presiding bishop of the Episcopal Church, the first person of color to serve in the role. He is an author, activist, and appeared on the global stage as he officiated Prince Harry and Meghan Markle's wedding in 2018.

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Low rise jeans are trying to make a comeback — does that mean the bodies that look good in them must too? (Aka: teensy tiny itty bitty very flat stomach bodies.)

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore how the body ideals promoted during our teen years are still informing the way we see our adult bodies. We look at how some things have changed — because there has been some progress! — and how others have stayed frustratingly toxic. Plus, we're joined by Cole Arthur Riley for a lovely conversation on how attending to our flesh and blood bodies can help us heal inside and out.

GUEST:

• Cole Arthur Riley is a writer and poet and the creator of the Black Liturgies project. She is also the author of the NY Times bestseller "This Here Flesh: Spirituality, Liberation, and the Stories that Make Us."

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New York's a drinking town. Happy hours. Boozy brunches. Martinis and oysters. The city's social life revolves around artisan cocktails and bubbly toasts and late night dive bars. And while the pandemic may have put a screeching halt to the social side of that life, it didn't stop the flow of booze. Restaurants offered craft cocktails to go, the sidewalks became open carry and delivery drinks were an app away. Drinking went from social to solo and it was during that time that both Katelyn and Roxy began to wonder if all this imbibing was really OK.

On this episode, we examine our relationships with alcohol and the changes we've made since the pandemic. We're joined by Sarah Bessey — a self-described "evangelist" for the sober life — who gave up drinking a few years ago and hasn't looked back since.

GUEST

• Sarah Bessey is the author of several books, including Jesus Feminist and the co-founder of the Evolving Faith conference. You can read her weekly musings at her substack: Sarah Bessey's Field Notes.  

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Katelyn and Roxy are back for a new season of Saved By the City and are joined by guest Jinger Duggar Vuolo. Listeners may know her as one of the siblings on the reality TV show “19 Kids and Counting," or maybe from the "Free Jinger" movement online.

In addition to her childhood being well-documented, Jinger also grew up within a Christian movement that was, shall we say, a bit … strict. As followers of Bill Gothard and his Institute of Basic Life Principles, the Duggars emphasized modesty, submission to authority and, uh, avoiding music with a worldly beat.

On this episode, Jinger shares how she has stayed Christian even as she's attempted to separate God from the fundamentalism she grew up with.

Plus: Katelyn's got a pop quiz for Roxy! And we ponder our prospects as reality TV stars.

GUEST:

• Jinger Duggar Vuolo is the sixth child in the Duggar family, featured on TLC's "19 Kids and Counting." She is the author of the new book "Becoming Free Indeed: My Story of Disentangling Faith From Fear."

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In New York City, the phrase has nothing to do with a culture war and everything to do with being a good neighbor. A recent NY Times article describes the city as "a swirling kaleidoscope of faiths," and living within that colorful milieu has profoundly shaped our posture toward other religions. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss the ways New York City has exposed us to the beauty and wisdom of other faith traditions, while introducing us to the importance of interfaith work in a country that will come to more and more resemble the pluralism of our city.

We are joined by Simran Jeet Singh, a fellow transplant to New York, who is dedicated to anti-racism and interfaith cooperation. As a Sikh, Singh knows what it's like to be the minority at the interfaith table and has helpful insights into how Christians, as the majority, can be good partners and allies.

GUEST: 

• Simran Jeet Singh is executive director for the Aspen Institute’s Religion and Society Program, an RNS columnist, and author of the book "The Light We Give: How Sikh Wisdom Can Transform Your Life."

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This week, Katelyn and Roxy reflect on the year that was 2022 (better than 2020!) and share some highlights and lowlights in various categories. Favorite book? Check. Favorite TV show? Yep. Favorite friendship moment? Yes please. Strangest thing you saw on the subway? Of course.

Plus, we share some goals for ourselves — and the podcast! — as we look toward 2023.

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Abusing power is an ancient genre of sin — and using religion to justify abuse is perhaps the oldest trick in that book. We know it won't stop with this podcast episode, but, here we go anyway. Katelyn and Roxy address some of the difficulties of identifying spiritual abuse (no, it isn't just "church hurt") and examine how it has manifested in a few more recent and notable scandals. Veteran psychologist and expert on religious trauma, Diane Langberg, joins the episode and helps put the "pastoral" back in the pulpit.

GUEST:

• Diane Langberg is a psychologist with more than 50 years of experience working with trauma survivors. She’s the author most recently of "Redeeming Power: Understanding Authority and Abuse in the Church."

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Katelyn has been on jury duty. We had Thanksgiving break. Roxy is on vacation this week. So it seemed like a good time to let our listeners do some of the work for us. We took to social media to seek your "ask me anything" — AMA — style questions.

And we totally go there.

Plus, here to deliver your questions (and a few of his own) is a very special guest, out from behind the curtain, the Wizard of Audio, our producer Jonathan Woodward!

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It's been five years since the NY Times exposé of Harvey Weinstein sparked the global #MeToo movement. And the new movie, "She Said," documents the two-steps-forward, one-step-back work of investigative reporters Megan Twohey and Jodi Kantor in uncovering the extent of Weinstein's abuses. 

"Pump it into my veins," is how Katelyn describes the movie. 

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss the new movie, the book it's based on, and where we are now.

GUESTS:

• Christine Emba is an opinion columnist and editor for The Washington Post. She is the author of the new book Rethinking Sex: A Provocation.
• Alissa Wilkinson is a film, culture and food writer. She is the senior culture reporter at Vox.com, as well as an associate professor at The King’s College. She is the author of the new book “Salty: Lessons on eating, drinking and living from revolutionary women.”

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At least according to some people who went to Twitter, Fox News, and God only knows where else to bemoan last week's midterm election results — placing a large share of their disappointment at the feet of unmarried women, who broke strongly for Democrats. Suffice it to say, their words were not very nice. Anyway, politics aside, we think their vitriol was misguided — and we have the data to prove it!

On this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy dive into some research on the state of unmarried women and the church. We discuss the importance of "thick community" and the false promises of independence.

Plus, we talk with Karen González, on how to move beyond "welcoming immigrants" to relationships of mutuality and kinship.

GUEST:

• Karen González
• is an immigrant advocate, writer — and unmarried woman, by the way, who is kicking butt and taking names — and author of the new book "Beyond Welcome: Centering Immigrants in Our Christian Response to Immigration."

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We've heard some doozies. And, while most friends are well-meaning (if occasionally passive-aggressive), they aren't always aware of how these phrases can bump against some tender spots. You've heard of "How to Lose a Guy in 10 Days," but in this episode, Katelyn and Roxy bring you ...

How to Lose Your Single Friends in 10 Words (Or Less).

But, not to worry, we don't want to leave you feeling speechless. We also offer some thoughts on what to say instead and share our most meaningful experiences of feeling supported and loved by our married friends with kids.

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Most women of a certain age (our age) have kids. They just do. And we don't. Living in that reality can be complicated — it's fun to be an "auntie," but it's not the same as being a mom — there's grief and there's gain. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy grapple with their own winding paths to life without kids. We share what's it's meant to mourn that loss while finding ways to embrace the gifts of a childfree life.

We're joined by Erin S. Lane who helps us challenge the default scripts of motherhood that society — and churches! — so often impose on women's lives.

GUEST:

• Erin S. Lane is a writer, theologian, and author of "Someone Other Than a Mother." She has a masters in gender studies from Duke Divinity School and works as a vocational retreat facilitator.

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There's an old joke that a religion is a cult plus time. So are we just late comers to a very old cult? Katelyn and Roxy explore this plus all the other scary things — like aging! — in our All Hallow's Eve episode. And religion reporter Sam Kestenbaum joins to talk vampires, mummies, QAnon devotees, and groups with some cult-y vibes (including maybe ... some of the churches we've attended).

GUEST:

• Sam Kestenbaum is a religion reporter who has written for The New York Times, The Washington Post, RNS and many other outlets about fringe and fascinating religious groups.

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Everyone seems to be talking about Christian nationalism right now. The phrase is in the air. And, while, there's plenty of focus on the evangelical vote every election cycle, this is not quite the same. 

Religion News Service, and especially religion and politics correspondent Jack Jenkins, has long been covering this new iteration of Christian nationalism. So, for this special episode, in the run up to the midterms, Roxy talks with Jack about his (award-winning) reporting on Christian nationalism over the past few years.

What is it? Where did it come from? And why is it playing such an outsized role in American politics right now?

GUEST:

• Jack Jenkins is a national reporter for RNS based in Washington, covering the intersection of religion and politics as well as U.S. Catholics. He is the author of “American Prophets: The Religious Roots of Progressive Politics and the Ongoing Fight for the Soul of the Country.”

This episode was produced with support from The Stiefel Freethought Foundation.

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Billy Graham and Billy Crystal both seemed to believe the answer was: nope and yes, always.

A rare instance of overlap in the evangelical-Hollywood Venn diagram, perhaps. But maybe it shouldn't be? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss their own friendships with men: when and how they've worked — and why they sometimes haven't. And we explore the vision Christianity offers for non-romantic, opposite sex relationships. 

Plus: coarse joking! Whatever that means.

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Is there anyone who reads the Bible with the intensity of an evangelical 12-year-old? So asks Charles Marsh, our guest for this episode and the author of "Evangelical Anxiety: A Memoir."

We resonate.

Katelyn and Roxy reflect on the amped up nature of an evangelical upbringing, recalling childhood fantasies of martyrdom, the high stakes proposal of eternal salvation or damnation, and Christian bumper stickers.

GUEST:

• Charles Marsh is a professor of religious studies at the University of Virginia and director of the Project on Lived Theology. Charles grew up as a preacher’s kid in the Deep South in the 1970s and writes about those experiences in his new book "Evangelical Anxiety: A Memoir."

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We get it: slippery slopes, dens of iniquity, roads to hell, etc. But maybe we've taken the Puritan instinct a little too far? Made everything that's fun suspect? Maybe it's time to lighten up a bit, look around at all God's created and go delight in it? Well, we'd like to give it a try anyway.

This week, "fun coach" Annie F. Downs joins Katelyn and Roxy to go deep on being lighthearted. She makes the case for why fun is essential to our calling. 

Plus: speed dating!

GUEST:

• Annie F. Downs is a NYT Bestselling author, self-appointed "fun coach" and founder of the "That Sounds Fun" podcast network. Check out her newest book, "Chase the Fun: 100 Days to Discover Fun Right Where You Are."

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As many famous Christians do, Beth Moore entered ministry with a simple desire: to teach people about Jesus. In the 1980s, that meant choreographing aerobics routines to Contemporary Christian Music. (Think Jazzercise for Jesus.) It also meant teaching a women’s Bible study class at church that quickly mushroomed in size. Soon, Beth was speaking at churches across the country, publishing several best-selling Bible studies, and starting her own ministry, Living Proof.

Many leaders would envy this kind of ascendant reach. As it turns out, Beth wouldn’t wish superstardom on anyone. As she told Katelyn and Roxy in this week’s episode, she doesn’t think anyone can thrive under an intense spotlight; they can only hope to survive it.

Beth has indeed survived it, using her platform since 2016 to speak up on behalf of women and people of color who have been hurt and marginalized in the evangelical church. Her public advocacy has received scrutiny from SBC leaders and online gadflies, but Beth is surviving because of the support of her family, plus simple joys like using her cast-iron skillet, visiting her neighbor’s donkey, and making batches of jelly.

GUESTS:

Beth Moore is the founder of Living Proof Ministries and the author of several Bible studies and books, including the forthcoming memoir All My Knotted-Up Life.

Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn’s new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.

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In the past two decades, worship music has dominated the Christian music charts, bringing churches like Hillsong into the evangelical mainstream and making millions through licensing and sold-out concerts. Worshipers come seeking a profound encounter with God and an ecstatic experience. That is often true for the performers as well.

But when ministry, commerce, and relationships are blended, it can be hard for industry insiders to stay true to their craft – and to themselves. Such is the case for recording artist William Matthews, who wrote and recorded songs with Bethel Church, a large, influential charismatic congregation in Redding, California. William joined Katelyn and Roxy to discuss life in the performer spotlight, the physical, mental, and spiritual toll it takes, and what happens when you can no longer support the version of Christianity being taught from the stage.

GUESTS:

William Matthews is a singer songwriter and recording artist who currently serves as music director of New Abbey Church in LA. Learn more at his Spotify page.

Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn’s new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.

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Stories abound of pastors who started to believe their own hype – and ended up capsizing their church and hurting a lot of people. There are spiritual and relational costs to putting leaders on pedestals.

But celebrity dynamics also are bad for pastors themselves. Many find themselves “alone at the top,” without real friendship and accountability, which can foster various addictions and abuses. In the second episode of our summer series, Roxy and Katelyn are joined by spiritual formation expert Chuck DeGroat, who has counseled hundreds of pastors in crisis. Chuck explains what happens when leaders are put in the spotlight too young or for the wrong reasons, how narcissistic tendencies show up in the pastorate, the deployment of cheap grace, and how ministry leaders can start the inner work to heal – if they are willing.

GUEST:

Chuck DeGroat is professor of pastoral care and spirituality at Western Theological Seminary and author most recently of When Narcissism Comes to Church: Healing Your Community from Emotional and Spiritual Abuse. Learn more at ChuckDeGroat.net.

Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn’s new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.

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It’s never been easier for women with massive talent to share their work and build a community around it. Social media have democratized the work of teaching and preaching. Instagram, with its aesthetic, aspirational vibes, has proven to be the most popular social media platform for Christian women influencers.

In the first episode of a four-part summer series on celebrity in the church (also the topic of Katelyn’s new book), Roxy and Katelyn are joined by author Hannah Anderson to chat about the platform that’s equally fun and frustrating. Anderson helps unpack the unspoken rules that Christian women must follow to wield authority online. We’re tempted to roll our eyes at some of the rules (such as the ubiquity of beachy waves), but there’s a lot more at play: what Hannah Anderson calls women’s ‘superpower’ in building communities of women for good causes.

GUESTS:

Hannah Anderson is author of several books on spirituality, including the most recent All That’s Good: Recovering the Lost Art of Discernment. She is cohost of the Persuasion podcast, a great “thought leader” Twitter follow, and lives with her family in the Blue Ridge Mountains.

Listeners of Saved by the City get 40 percent off of Katelyn’s new book, Celebrities for Jesus, when they head over to Baker Book House. No code required and free shipping! Learn more here.

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On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy explore the role of the dinner party in family, friendship and the resistance. Sure, fixing food can be tedious and eating it entirely unglamorous but good food and good drink can also be a spark — a spark for creativity, for reflection, for the best kinds of rich conversation. We are joined by film critic, author and dinner host extraordinaire Alissa Wilkinson for lessons on eating well and living loud. 

GUEST:

• Alissa Wilkinson is a film, culture and food writer. She is the senior culture reporter at Vox.com, as well as an associate professor at The King's College. She is the author of the new book "Salty: Lessons on eating, drinking and living from revolutionary women."

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Aside from another contentious presidential election, the nation's largest Protestant denomination must also reckon with the explosive findings from a sweeping sex abuse investigation. 

On this week's episode, Roxy is joined by her good friend and a son of the Southern Baptists, Jonathan Merritt. The two discuss their own SBC upbringings and how it feels to watch your childhood denomination go so off the rails. They are also joined by SBC insider Ben Cole, who gives a preview of what to expect next week in Anaheim.

GUESTS:

• Jonathan Merritt is one of America's most trusted and popular writers on religion, culture, and politics. He is an award-winning contributor for The Atlantic, a contributing editor and monthly columnist for Religion News Service. He is author of several critically-acclaimed books including "Learning to Speak God from Scratch: Why Sacred Words are Vanishing - and How We Can Revive Them."
• Benjamin Cole is the founder of Longview Strategies consulting firm. On Twitter, he’s @BaptistBlogger, where he has a lively feed.

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New York City is the first place we've lived among so many Asian American neighbors — and the place we've been introduced to the rich diversity of the Asian American experience. Yet, it's also been the place that's opened our eyes to the violence, harmful stereotypes and erasure our AAPI neighbors face. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with Nikki Toyama-Szeto about how she's learned to lead authentically from both her race and gender — finding the gifts God has given her through both. She also shares some of her family's story as survivors of the Japanese internment camps in the U.S. during World War II.

GUEST:

• Nikki Toyama-Szeto is the executive director at Christians for Social Action, the author of God of Justice and host of the 20 Minute Takes podcast.

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Look, most of us really want to be good, ethical people. We want to make the world a better place. We want our clothes to be sustainably made by people receiving fair wages. We don't want the ocean to be full of plastic islands. And we'd rather chickens roamed free of cages.

But the complexities of our modern, globalized world make being a good person more difficult than ever. Honestly, it can feel overwhelming! And discouraging! Katelyn and Roxy talk with Sandra Maria Van Opstal, a longtime activist dedicated to disrupting oppressive systems, about how to pursue a lifestyle of justice without losing your sanity. 

Plus: A round of 'Do-Gooder Jeopardy'

GUEST

• Sandra Maria Van Opstal is a second-generation Latina pastor, activist and author and the executive director of Chasing Justice, a BIPOC-led movement that mobilizes Christians to live justly. Sandra is the author of The Next Worship, as well as contributor to the New York Times bestselling book A Rhythm of Prayer.

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Just the day before, we had sat down with historian Jemar Tisby to discuss the hysteria over critical race theory and why racial progress always incites backlash.

These are not unrelated events. And in the wake of another white supremacist terrorist attack, we believe it is unconscionable to continue to claim that critical race theory is the real danger in our country and churches.

At a time when reports of racially motivated hate crimes are on the rise, we want to ask: why are so many Americans concerned about CRT? And what is the role and responsibility of white Christians in this moment?

GUEST:

•  Jemar Tisby is a public historian and the author of a number of books, including the acclaimed, "The Color of Compromise: The Truth about the American Church’s Complicity in Racism." You can also sign up for his newsletter at: jemartisby.substack.com

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Lift your hands up to the sky.

Whether "Shout to the Lord," gives you nostalgic warm fuzzies or sends a chill up your spine, if you've ever owned a WOW CD, this episode is for you. For many who grew up in evangelical spaces, the music was as defining as any sermon or youth group Bible study. There was the worship music on Sundays, the Christian ska for Friday nights and, if you like REM, maybe check out Newsboys?

Katelyn and Roxy grew up in, we'd argue, the glory days of CCM (Contemporary Christian Music), but our relationship to that particular music of our youth is, well, complicated. We talk with theologian and CCM guru, Leah Payne, about the evolving industry and how worship music became big business. 

We're also joined by pastor and songwriter David Gungor to explore the formative power of worship liturgies.

GUESTS:

• Leah Payne is a theology professor at Portland Seminary, cohost of the Weird Religion podcast, and author of a forthcoming book on the history of CCM.
• David Gungor is the worship pastor at Good Shepherd New York. He is part of the band The Brilliance and helped found The Good Shepherd Collective.

This episode features the song “I Hear Silence” from the Good Shepherd Collective. Find their albums wherever you listen to your music.

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Deconstructing. Dismantling. Decolonizing. The last several years have felt like all the Ds all the time. It's, well, disorienting, destabilizing, dismaying ... OK, you get the picture. The point is: we're all feeling a little shaky as we try to navigate tough questions that often cut to the heart of what we thought we believed.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk with author and theologian Candice Marie Benbow who has some strong words of wisdom — and conviction — for anyone publicly critiquing the church. If you want to point out problems, she says, you bear some responsibility for guiding people to solutions.

Plus: we explore all the metaphors.

GUEST:

• Candice Marie Benbow is a theologian who situates her work at the intersections of beauty, faith, feminism and culture. She is the author of Red Lip Theology: For Church Girls Who've Considered Tithing to the Beauty Supply Store When Sunday Morning Isn't Enough.

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The last six weeks have seen a seesaw of scandalous revelations between Hillsong U.S. and Hillsong Australia. The resignation of global senior pastor Brian Houston after revelations of sexual indiscretion. The discovery of allegations of rape by a junior staffer against a former pastor. The departure of several prominent U.S. pastors and Hillsong affiliated churches. A not-so-flattering documentary. And then the leaked report of the Hillsong NYC investigation, which painted a picture of a church leadership rife with abuse, sexual misconduct and secrecy.

This week, Katelyn and Roxy break down the Hillsong breakdown — and explore some of the systemic issues that have seemed to haunt the church from the beginning. Roxy gives a recap of her reporting on Hillsong from the last few years — beginning with the firing of Carl Lentz, hype-priest and Justin Bieber confidante, for his “tequila-drenched love affair.”

And we dig into some questions core to Katelyn's upcoming book on Christian celebrities. Including of course, just how deep can a pastor's V-neck go?

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Chances are you weren't holding a phone at the time.

Maybe it was the pandemic. Or maybe it was inevitable. But we've started to notice, with increasing alarm, that our attention spans are shrinking, our imaginations feel parched, scrolling has become the default during any downtime.

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy take an honest look at the ways life has begun to feel diminished — even as our devices offer more and more. We are joined by Andy Crouch, a longtime friend and a mentor to us both, to talk tech and the meaning of life ... or, perhaps more accurately, the meaning of living.

GUEST:

• Andy Crouch is the author of several books, including his most recent "The Life We’re Looking For: Reclaiming Relationship in a Technological World." He is a partner for theology and culture at Praxis, an organization that works as a creative engine for redemptive entrepreneurship

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It might be twitterpated season, but we're not feeling the love. We've spent most of our adulthood single and, truth is, we're kinda settling in. Life is full and meaningful. We've got plans. Is it worth holding space for the possibility of love?

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy gauge our hope-o-meters when it comes to romance, find them rather on the low side and go in search of a hope infusion. Enter: Faitth Brooks. Faitth gives us a glimpse into her pandemic rom-com — and offers some words of wisdom for the still waiting. 

Plus, everyone's favorites: Sharon and Karen join the show!

GUESTS:

• Faitth Brooks is a writer, speaker, activist, avid traveler, and co-host of the Melanated Faith podcast.
• E. Karen Beaty is a retired children’s librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn’s mom.)
• Sharon Stone is a pre-K and kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years’ experience. (And she’s Roxy’s mom.)

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It's been said (by A.W. Tozer) that what you think about God might just be the most important thing about you. But where do our ideas about God come from? In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy do a little prodding at our conceptions of God and where we got them (a harder task than you might think!).

And we're joined by a therapist, of course.

Krispin Mayfield is a licensed professional counselor who explores the intersections of faith and attachment science. Krispin explains how our attachment styles can inform our view of God and, consequently, our relationship with God. 

GUEST:

• Krispin Mayfield is licensed professional counselor and the author of Attached to God: A Practical Guide to Deeper Spiritual Experience. He is also a co-host on two podcasts, the Prophetic Imagination Station and Attached to the Invisible. 

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We've talked a lot — both on and off the podcast — about purity culture. We've critiqued the way it treated our bodies, our sexuality and even our futures. It's taken work (and some therapy!) to untangle many of the deeply toxic lessons of purity culture from our views on sex. But here's the thing: after purity culture, we're not totally sure where to turn for a better alternative. Mainstream sexual ethics are confusing, without a script and quickly changing. 

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy are joined once again by author Christine Emba. Christine came on during season one as we took a hard look at purity culture. Since then, she's thought a lot about sex! (Because she wrote a book on it.) And how modern ideas of liberated sex can be just as damaging as restrictive purity codes.

GUEST:

• Christine Emba is an opinion columnist and editor for The Washington Post. She is the author of the new book Rethinking Sex: A Provocation.

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Nary a week seems to go by these days without revelations of leaders behaving badly in Christian organizations. Last week, the headlines hit close to home when a new report came out from the the flagship evangelical magazine — and our former workplace — detailing a history of sexual harassment going unchecked within Christianity Today's leadership. The report was heartbreaking to read — and yet not entirely surprising for either of us. 

In this episode, we react to the report and reflect on our experiences at CT, as well as at other male-dominated Christian organizations. We also explore some tough questions — about the ways in which theology can undergird a sexist workplace culture, how internalized misogyny can keep women silent and what we might do differently if we worked there now.

Read the whole report from Christianity Today here.

A post-production clarification: While the CT report indicated that HR didn't add formal disciplinary updates to former employees' files, HR leaders did take notes.

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Look, pandemic polarization was a real thing. We all saw it: school board blow ups, fist fights on air planes, anti-vax protests at state capitols. But for most of us, the fallout was more personal, closer to home. We felt conflicted over whether to attend a friend's wedding. Our parents cancelled Christmas — or didn't. An aunt is no longer on speaking terms with a cousin over vaccine differences.

But do you ever worry ... maybe all those judgment calls you had to make made you judgmental?

Katelyn and Roxy are back for season three and they are joined by the fabulous podcasting duo Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers from Pantsuit Politics to discuss, well, the politics of the pandemic. But, more really, whether there's a path forward together. Can we heal the deep divides between us? And what will that take from me?

GUESTS:

• Sarah Stewart Holland and Beth Silvers are the hosts of Pantsuit Politics podcast, named by Apple Podcasts as one of the Best Shows of 2021. They are also the authors of "I Think You’re Wrong (But I’m Listening): A Guide to Grace-Filled Political Conversation" and the forthcoming "Now What?: How to Move Forward When We're Divided (about Basically Everything)." Learn more about streaming the podcast as well as their books and live events. 

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Much ado has been made in recent weeks about deconstruction — particularly from pastors and leaders who decry it as "trendy" or a slippery slope to sin. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss their own experiences questioning the Christian faith, the evangelical church and the teachings handed down to them from both pulpit and pen. They are joined by author Philip Yancey, something of an evangelical darling himself, whose books have long been a guide for the doubting Christian.

Plus: some thoughts from the Twitter hive mind on what pastors should know about why people deconstruct.

GUEST:

• Philip Yancey is the author of 25 books, including "The Jesus I Never Knew," "What’s So Amazing About Grace?" and his most recent book and first memoir: "Where the Light Fell."

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It's that time of year — when the holly is hung and the carols are sung and the wayward wanderers return from places far flung. There's nothing like going home for the holidays to make a person wonder where they really belong. In this week's episode, Katelyn and Roxy discuss how New York City has come to feel like home ... but so too does Ohio and Colorado. How do we create a new home as adults while holding onto the traditions and values of the places and people that formed us?

The hosts are joined by Elizabeth Passarella, a southern evangelical transplant who moved to NYC more than 20 years ago. She's embraced the big city grit — without losing that southern charm.

GUEST:

• Elizabeth Passsarella is a contributing editor for Southern Living, where she writes the "Social Graces" column, and a former editor at Real Simple and Vogue. She is the author of Good Apple: Tales of a Southern Evangelical in New York.

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To be a woman has always meant being caught between expectation and reality — between all that society says you should be and all that you believe you are not. In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy ask themselves what they like about being women — and how embracing those qualities can be revolutionary. They are joined by author Kaya Oakes to talk about how women — past and present — are so often being shaped into the image men want. Including the Virgin Mary, the Mother of God. 

GUEST:

• Kaya Oakes is an award-winning journalist and the author of several books, including her newest: The Defiant Middle: How Women Claim Life's In-Betweens to Remake the World. She teaches writing at UC Berkeley and speaks regularly on topics related to religion, writing and feminism.

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Growing up evangelical in the 1990s meant purity rings and teen study Bibles and focusing on the family. But it also meant participating in activities and events that were part of larger cultural forces we were very unaware of at the time. Katelyn and Roxy reflect back on the seminal moments of their own evangelical journeys in the late 20th and early 21st century — and examine how those events not only shaped them, but evangelicalism writ large.

GUESTS:

• A whole lotta nostalgia. 

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Thanksgiving may still be a favorite holiday, but its origin myths have long since been revealed to be just that: myths. But those myths are more than just cute children's stories, they are dangerous erasures of people groups, cultures and the violent atrocities committed against them. On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy reflect on what they did — and did not — learn about the Indigenous people groups who have populated the places they've called home. Terry Wildman joins the episode to share his process for creating an Indigenous translation of the New Testament — following a storytelling tradition of oral cultures — and why that work is valuable for all Bible readers. 

Plus, a field trip! Katelyn and Roxy head to the National Museum of the American Indian to learn more about the stories and history of the Native groups who lived on the lands of New York long before it became New York. 

GUEST:

• Terry Wildman, born and raised in Michigan, is of Ojibwe and Yaqui ancestry. He is the lead translator and project manager for the First Nations Version New Testament (IVP, 2021), and is an author, recording artist, songwriter, storyteller, and public speaker.

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Living in a big city offers daily encounters with those who are experiencing homelessness. Seeing neighbors who are sleeping on the streets, pleading for something to eat and taking refuge on subway trains is an ever-present heartbreak — and one that can lead to despair as the situation feels so beyond our ability to help. Homelessness is on the rise around the country, and in this episode, Katelyn and Roxy ask: What can we actually do to help? How should we respond when someone asks for money? What are the implicit biases and misunderstandings we have toward those living on the streets? And, yeah, what would Jesus do?

Katelyn and Roxy are joined by homeless advocate Kevin Nye to discuss the systemic issues that contribute to homelessness and keep people on the streets. We also hear from Shams DaBaron, "da homeless hero," who experienced homelessness in New York City and has become an unexpected activist in the space.

GUESTS:

• Kevin Nye is an advocate for the homeless in Los Angeles. His book "Grace Can Lead Us Home: A Christian Call to End Homelessness” is forthcoming in fall 2022. Read his work and learn about his trainings at kevinmnye.com.
• Shams DaBaron, "da homeless hero," is a hip-hop artist, filmmaker and activist. Read more about his story and his advocacy.

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New York City may be jam packed with people, but it's also been referred to as "The Lonely City." In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy talk about living alone — the good, the bad and the ugly cries. But loneliness isn't just for the single folks out there — survey after survey has observed an uptick in people describing themselves as lonely. Ekemini Uwan joins to discuss the difference between solitude and loneliness — how we can lean into being alone and also seek meaningful connection.

And a fan favorite returns to the show to PREACH!

GUESTS:

• Ekemini Uwan is a public theologian and co-host of the award-winning podcast, Truth's Table. Her writing has appeared in The Atlantic, The Washington Post, Huffington Post Black Voices, Christianity Today, and The Witness: A Black Christian Collective. She is a contributor to the forthcoming Truth's Table book. 
• The Rev. Ben DeHart, vicar of The Parish of Calvary-St.George’s and co-host of the podcast “Our Triune Pod."

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The name of the game in public discourse these days seems to be "outrage." The polarized language from pulpit to podium to facebook post underlines just how divided our society has become. Is it possible to stay centered in an age of extremes?

On this episode, Katelyn and Roxy are joined by political analyst Kirsten Powers. No stranger to conflict and not one to shy away from a debate, Kirsten began to wonder if constant immersion in what was becoming an increasingly toxic discourse was maybe beginning to poison her soul. She talks about the steps she's taken to form healthy habits, while still engaging in the issues that matter.

Plus, a pop quiz straight out of high school debate team.

GUEST:

• Kirsten Powers is a senior political analyst for CNN and a USA Today columnist. She is a New York Times bestseller and the author of the new book Saving Grace: Speak Your Truth, Stay Centered, and Learn to Coexist with People Who Drive You Nuts

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A parade of ghouls, ghosts and ghastly horrors, Halloween is viewed as more trick than treat by many evangelicals. It's the devil's play day, after all, and the demonic is no joke.

Katelyn and Roxy take a spin down memory lane, recalling childhood fall festivals, teenage Hell Houses and the ever present threat of The Rapture. Oh, and what was up with that whole Satanic Panic thing? Tyler Huckabee joins in on the nostalgia, dredging up a few of his own ghosts of evangelical Halloween's past. 

And we wonder: maybe seeing demons around every corner isn't a super healthy way to live?

GUEST:

• Tyler Huckabee is the senior editor of Relevant magazine and co-host of “Cape Town,” a podcast about superheroes and superhero things.

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Toxic church cultures. Spiritual abuse. #ChurchToo. Religious trauma. The last few decades have given us a new language and a new awareness for an ancient sin — wielding the power of religion for unholy ends. Over a lifetime spent in the church, Katelyn and Roxy have experienced and witnessed their share of unhealthy spiritual cultures. And as religion journalists, they've heard countless stories of spiritual abuse, toxic leadership, racism in the pews and more.

On this episode, the two explore why church wounds and spiritual abuse inflict such lasting damage in people's lives. They are joined by Kyle J. Howard, a trauma-informed soul care provider, who offers insight into the nature of religious trauma and how to heal, without losing your faith.

GUEST:

• Kyle J. Howard is a Christian theologian and soul care provider specializing in racial and religious trauma. Through donor support, he provides free soul care to Christians of color who lack the resources to pay. He also hosts the "Coram Deo" podcast. Find out more and support his work.

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Katelyn and Roxy are certified bookworms — and that particular inclination goes back a long ways. In this episode, the two hosts talk about the books that shaped them as children. How reading turned into a lifelong love affair. And why reading is more than a hobby; it's a powerful worldview-shaping exercise. You are what you read, after all.

Voracious reader Danté Stewart explains how reading widely — and far outside his own perspective and experience — has shaped him as a writer and human. He also drops a list of book recommendations worthy of several shelves in your bookcase.

Plus, the hosts head out into the field to interview two childhood learning experts (Karen & Sharon!).

GUESTS:

• Danté Stewart is the author of the new book "Shoutin' in the Fire: An American Epistle," a book exploring Black joy in an anti-Black world. He is a speaker and a writer whose work in the areas of race, religion and politics has been featured in Religion News Service, CNN, The Washington Post, Christianity Today, Sojourners and The Witness.
• E. Karen Beaty is a retired children's librarian and early childhood education director. (She is also Katelyn's mom.)
• Sharon Stone is a pre-K and kindergarten teacher with more than 50 years' experience. (And she's Roxy's mom.)

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Who doesn't love a good inside joke? Even better when a couple hundred, or a couple thousand, people are in on it. Welcome to Weird Christian Twitter: a group of evangelical and exvangelical misfits who share a lifetime of common memories and cultural touchpoints — from sword drills, to youth group lock-ins, to CCM crushes and True Love Waits pledges.

On this episode, we do a deep dive into #WCT and the online community that's formed via a collective, albeit mostly good natured, side-eyeing of evangelicalism. We are joined by Matthew Pierce, "The King of Weird Christian Twitter" (so says Christianity Today) and #WCT's resident awkward, hormonal boy from youth group. Or, at least, that's his online persona, even though he swears he lives a normal, boring, adult life irl.

And Kate Shellnutt, senior news editor for Christianity Today magazine and self-described "lurker" on Weird Christian Twitter, gives us some backstory on this oddball Twitter subculture and "the movement" it's formed. 

GUESTS:

• Matthew Pierce is co-host of the Fun Sexy Bible Time podcast and the author of the new book "Evangelical Thought Leader: The Liturgy of Radically Engaging the Culture of Paradigm Shifts."
• Kate Shellnutt is senior news editor for Christianity Today magazine.

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Saved By the City returns for season two! So grab your leopard print blazer, roll down your windows and get ready to be all up in your feels. It's been 30 years since Amy Grant released Heart in Motion – the chart-topping album that marked the musician's crossover from contemporary Christian artist to mainstream pop icon. Katelyn and Roxy catch up with the artist at her Nashville farm and talk to their childhood icon about living life in the public eye — through all its ups and downs.

The hosts also reflect on the expectations put on women — especially Christian women — who have achieved fame. And how the pressure to live their lives on display places even our most beloved women stars at the mercy of the mob.

GUEST:

• Amy Grant is a singer songwriter and so much more. She is celebrating the 30 year anniversary of her album “Heart in Motion,” which was certified platinum 5 times, making it the best selling Christian album of all time. It spent weeks on the Billboard top 10, as did a number of its songs. Including the classic Baby Baby which reached no 1 on Billboard,

Several songs from Amy Grant's Heart in Motion are featured on the episode.

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In a bonus summer series, Roxy goes on a journey to see what's what for seekers in other great cities, exploring the spiritual side of four favorite metropolises. Our final city is Nashville and our master of ceremonies is Kat Armas.

Kat is a fresh transplant to Nashville and gives us her first impressions of the Music City. We talk about the significance of place and what it takes to put down roots in a new one — from getting to know the literal dirt to intentionally building community. Plus, we are joined by a special guest and host our own neighborly "meet cute."

GUESTS:

• Kat Armas is the author of the new book "Abuelita Faith" and the host of Protagonistas, a podcast highlighting the stories and experiences of Black, Indigenous and other women of color among communities of faith.
• Tyler Huckabee is the senior editor of Relevant magazine and the co-host of CapeTown, a podcast about superheroes and superhero things.

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Devi takes us on a tour of the oft-voted "most livable city in the world" and its richly diverse population — and food scene. We compare notes on evangelicalism, purity culture and finding community in a new city.

And, yeah, we talk Hillsong.

GUESTS:

• Devi Abraham is a writer, thinker and podcaster. She is co-host of "Where Do We Go From Here?," a weekly podcast untangling sexual ethics for a generation of Christians detoxing from purity culture.

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In a bonus summer series, Roxy goes on a journey to see what's what for seekers in other great cities, exploring the spiritual side of four favorite metropolises. This week we hit up Hollywood, and the star of our show is Laura Tremaine.

Laura takes us behind the scenes of one of America's most storied cities as we explore both the myths and realities that shape her City of Angels. Plus, our hosts switch roles and Laura wastes no time getting to the good stuff.

GUESTS:

• Laura Tremaine is the author of the new book "Share Your Stuff: I'll Go First" and the host of the podcast "10 Things to Tell You."

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In a bonus summer series, Roxy goes on a journey to see what's what for seekers in other great cities, exploring the spiritual side of four favorite metropolises. First up is London, hosted by our top-notch tour guide, Chine McDonald.

Chine takes us through some of the twists and turns (and down a few of the dark alleys) of Christianity — and evangelicalism — in England. She gives us a glimpse into navigating race and racism in London as a Black woman and Nigerian immigrant. And we get a front row seat at a poetry reading.

Oh, yeah, and naturally we spill some tea on Harry and Meghan.

GUESTS:

• Chine McDonald is the author of the new book "God Is Not a White Man" and is the head of community fundraising and public engagement at Christian Aid.
• Azariah France-Williams is a priest in the Church of England and is the author of "Ghost Ship: Institutional Racism and the Church of England." He is also a co-host of the podcast "(G)race."

The poem below is featured on the show and is written by Azariah France-Williams, who performs and writes under the name BraveSlave.

There is an old Jewish tale,

Which enriches my own of

Honi the circle maker, who sees,

A man who planting the seed of a carob tree.

Honi the circle maker

asks why, why plant something

which will benefit those who live

after you have expired?

The man replied,

I received the fruit

for which my ancestors fought,

so for my descendants

this seed, this thought will

feed them when I am its soil,

Hence I plant, I labour, I toil ...

The government's racial disparity report,

Arrived on April first, but I am not a fool,

The African child is divided from the Caribbean, in their school,

Just another example, of divide and rule.

An separation of an undivided identity ...

leads to split personalities ...

Altered destinies ... broken harmonies ...

Racial crimes of the past are said only to haunt black people,

So we should stop reciting,

stop inviting ....

the ghouls of yesteryear!

That’s gaslighting!

The problems of racism are still evidently here.

The authors argue against terms like white privilege,

And white fragility, instead it is simply, a bias of

affinity.

The power imbalance, is hidden from the light,

As white dominance and prominence are hidden out of sight

If whiteness becomes an airborne pathogen,

black and brown folx gonna need some anti-racist Sanatogen,

The report indicates we can see the upside of slavery,

Because look at the product, it produced me.

The new narrative of how we came over

to make Britain Great, the empire!

It is that which should inspire, so

Let’s air brush, the gold rush,

for the sugar rush,

Black gold, were the authors of the report

Stone cold sober?

This was no mere foreign exchange,

Transatlantic slavery only one side gained.

The report says institutional racism is not a big factor,

In the heart of the matter,

Geography, religion, socio-economics

is the cause, job done, racism gone, cue the applause,

Except

My mother could not freely choose the place where she could reside,

Her qualifications nullified, so diminished what she could provide,

As for the church this is where it hurts, religion simply lied,

It said she was welcome, but left her outside,

This report leaves black and brown people's deeper needs unattended,

The state shield is removed, and we are all left undefended,

But my faith is in the ones whose pursuit of justice

may led to their execution, martyrs for the cause,

Of a cosmic solution, a pride of lions prepared to roar,

exit every tomb, walk through walls and locked doors.

The universal energy, love defeats all enemies.

Even if they kill you, and you never get to see

How the seed of your courage became

a Carob tree.

—Azariah France-Williams, 2021

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Plenty has been written about the rise of the so-called nones, those who are unaffiliated with any faith tradition. Many of them were once Christians. But behind the stats are millions of stories and spiritual journeys. Behind the stats are more than a few of our friends. In this episode, we reflect on those who have left the faith: why they left, how to learn from them and what it takes to stay friends.

Audrey Assad joins us to share her own spiritual journey from Plymouth Brethren, to Catholic, to no longer a practicing Christian. 

GUEST:

• Audrey Assad is a multiple Dove Award nominee singer-songwriter based in Nashville, Tennessee. Her newest album, "Eden," explores "the distance between Audrey’s old ideas about God and her freshly gained perspective." You can find more of her music on iTunes, Amazon, Spotify or wherever you listen to music.

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Purity culture was at its height while we were growing up — and the teachings made an impact. But what to do now, decades later, when the promises and threats of purity culture no longer hold the same sway? And when the harms appear to so dramatically outweigh any good? In this episode, we wrestle with what a "Christian" sexual ethic really looks like — long after the teenage hormones have abated. Christine Emba joins the episode to unflinchingly look at the impacts of purity culture — but also to imagine where to go from here.

Purity culture felt like an end all. So how do we imagine what's beyond?

GUESTS:

• Christine Emba is an editor and columnist for the Washington Post. She is the author of the forthcoming "Rethinking Sex: A Provocation"

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Gone it seems are the days of accidentally brushing a stranger's hand while you both reach for the single copy of the same book at the library, only to lock eyes and "just know." Algorithms have replaced butterflies. And swiping right so rarely leads to starry eyes. In this episode, Katelyn and Roxy ask: is it even possible to meet someone in real life anymore?

Enter: Heather Thompson Day, the "queen of matchmaking," who weighs in with some much needed optimism and more than a few surprising stats. And Katelyn and Roxy play a round of their own matchmaking game.

GUESTS:

• Dr. Heather Thompson Day is an associate professor of communication and rhetoric at Colorado Christian University. She is the author of six books, including the forthcoming It's Not Your Turn: What to Do While You're Waiting for Your Breakthrough.

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We grew up seeing plenty of examples of women in power suits — from Hollywood to Wall Street, they were shattering glass ceilings and defying expectations. This new cultural norm fed big dreams and big ambitions for girls coming of age in the 1980s and '90s. But the 2000s have revealed a darker reality — from wage gaps to sexual harassment, the workplace for women is still far from ideal. Beyond that, the myth women can have it all — domestic bliss and career success — has proved as much paralyzing pressure as endless potential. Not to mention the conflicting messages we hear from church and culture. After all, one place many women are still not allowed is the pulpit. What's an ambitious woman to do?

In this episode, Fox News host Shannon Bream joins us to talk ambition and devotion — and how the women of the Bible have offered her guidance and inspiration. And The Rev. Dr. LaKeesha Walrond offers a glimpse into her journey from small-town Texas to big-city pastor.

GUESTS:

• Shannon Bream is an American journalist and lawyer. She is the host of FOX News @ Night and author of The Women of the Bible Speak
• The Rev. Dr. LaKeesha Walrond is president of New York Theological Seminary and the executive pastor and chief of staff at First Corinthian Baptist Church in Harlem, New York

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We both grew up in homes that felt more egalitarian — there wasn't an emphasis on gender roles or an elevation of a "traditional" family model. However, somewhere along the way, we began to encounter ideas from church and Christian culture about what a "godly" woman looked like. This maven of domesticity kept a clean home, a well-fed brood and a satisfied spouse. She was queen of her home but submissive to her husband. And she was smoking hot. In this episode, we unpack some of our own lingering baggage around this female Christian ideal and talk to author and historian Beth Allison Barr about why "biblical womanhood" isn't really all that biblical. Plus, a special appearance from a fan-favorite guest.

Feminism and Christianity are often pitted against each other. But the Bible isn't the reason why.

GUESTS:

• Beth Allison Barr, author of "The Making of Biblical Womanhood" and professor of history at Baylor University
• The Rev. Ben DeHart, vicar of The Parish of Calvary-St.George’s and co-host of the podcast "Our Triune Pod"

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Things it is not: a monastery.

When we moved here, we heard from a lot of evangelical friends and family that New York City could be damaging to our faith. Most of their warnings had to do with how secular and hedonistic the city is — all those worldly temptations. But, honestly, what we've found most wearing on our faith is the pace and noise of the city. Both of us long for and value a robust interior spiritual life. But New York is such an exterior city — a show-off city. Who has time for devotions amid all this distraction? We talk to fellow New Yorker Father James Martin about how he manages to cultivate quiet, spiritual disciplines that seem so at odds with the energy of the city. Plus, we learn all about the practice of "sound bathing," from religion journalist Liz Kineke.

Talking to God in Gotham isn't impossible. It just takes a lot of intentionality. And maybe a gong.

Our guests this week:

• The Rev. James Martin: Jesuit priest, editor at large for America Magazine, author of "Learning to Pray" and "Jesus: A Pilgrimage," consultor to the Dicastery for Communication
• Liz Kineke: Broadcast and print journalist on the faith and religion beat, formerly with CBS Religion. Read Liz's article that inspired her interview on the podcast: Joyful noise or meditative hum, sound resets the mind for faith.

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Every step toward anti-racism is an important step. Lisa Sharon Harper has wisdom to hear, and Roxy and Katelyn have whiteness to explore.

• Honored Guest: The Ruby Woo Pilgrimage — a sacred journey through the intersectional story of the struggle of women for equality in the U.S. Check it out: @RubyWooPilgrim and the #RubyWooPilgrimage
• Also Lisa Sharon Harper of Freedom Road — former chief church engagement officer of Sojourners and prolific writer, speaker and grass-tops organizer. She founded Freedom Road in 2017 and set out to assemble an equally prolific and diverse team of leading experts, advocates and trainers dedicated to shrinking “The Narrative Gap”
• And David Favarolo — Director of Curatorial Affairs at Lower East Side Tenement Museum

There are so many voices to learn from as you seek to understand racism and the role of whiteness in society — and in our own lives — here are 15 BIPOC Christian women Katelyn and Roxy have been listening to and learning from:

• Austin Channing Brown
• Anthea Butler
• Kaitlin Curtice
• Karen Gonzalez
• Marlena Graves
• Lisa Sharon Harper
• Kathy Khang
• Jacqui Lewis
• Latasha Morrison
• Trillia Newbell
• Sandra Maria Van Opstal
• Michelle Ami Reyes
• Micky ScottBey Jones
• Heather Thompson Day
• Nikki Toyama-Szeto

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Check out this exploration of the markers that attend women of faith - and how deeply misunderstood they are.

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In this episode, we grapple with "the e-word" and why we struggle to claim the evangelical label. Having grown up fully immersed in that culture and going on to dedicate much of our careers to the movement, we examine our disillusionment and disappointment with its trajectory — and where we go next.

The past five years revealed fractures and hypocrisies that betrayed so much of what we — and a generation of millennial Christians — grew up being taught. Now we wonder: Is evangelicalism worth saving?

Plus: We go on an adventure to Washington Square Park to hear what some of our New York City neighbors think about the word "evangelical."

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In the end it’s about how a condescending question asked in a less than kind way can still lead to a bit of soul-searching.

GUESTS:

• Robert J Monson - co-host of the 3 Black Men Podcast

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This episode addresses the natural tension between a culture that encourages experimentation and adventurousness, with an upbringing of ingrained reticence and 'purity'.

GUESTS:

• Jon Birger, author of Make Your Move, The New Science of Dating and why Women Are In Charge
• The Reverend Ben DeHart, Associate Pastor of The Parish Of Calvary-St.George's

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This episode addresses deep-seated beliefs among evangelicals, about big cities, secular culture, and their neighbors.

GUESTS:

• Dr. Phillip Jenkins, Distinguished Professor of History and Co-Director, Program on Historical Studies of Religion
• Rev. Dr. LaKeesha Walrond of the New York Theological Seminary
• Karen Beaty & Sharon Stone

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