Get book links and resources at 2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at 2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Michael reads from Ulysses by James Joyce. [Reading begins at 03:13]

Hear me discuss:

“This is the final episode. This is the final chapter. So it's me saying goodbye, and me reading two pages from a book that meant something to me.” [00:00] | “The Molly chapter is quite famous in literary circles. It’s written without any punctuation …” [00:50] | “Joyce called ‘Yes’ the most positive word in the English language. That's how he wanted to finish this book. So that's how I want to finish this whole series.” [06:35]

Today's guest is Neil Pasricha, author of The Book of Awesome series and host of the 3 Books podcast, where he explores the 1,000 most formative books. Neil’s work centers on celebrating life’s small joys and finding happiness through simplicity. His reflections offer guidance on balancing ambition and cultivating contentment while navigating life's complexities.

Neil’s reflections reveal the importance of stepping away from the noise, embracing vulnerability, and rediscovering what truly matters.

Get book links and resources at 2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at 2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Neil reads from A Fraction of the Whole by Steve Toltz, introducing its compelling, layered storytelling that resonated deeply with him. [Reading begins at 28:05]

Hear us discuss:

“Almost all problems are solved by going on a walk. Your body is soothed by something we have less of today than ever before: exposure to nature.” [13:02] | “Inside of me, there is always this wrestling match between ambition and contentment.” [17:17] | “Life is long if you know how to live it.” [23:45] | “Get more and more comfortable with feeling like if I were to lose everything, I would be okay. That’s kind of where you have to be.” [24:01] | “Keeping your thoughts as wide as possible is hard in an era of homogenization... Be wary of what you find through search and be seeking of what you find through serendipity.” [41:14]

Today’s guest is Greg M. Epstein, the Humanist Chaplain at Harvard and MIT and author of Good Without God. For two decades, Greg has built a community of secular and non-religious students and thinkers. He discusses how humanism, self-reflection, and embracing vulnerability can lead to meaning and connection, even in the face of existential challenges.

Greg’s reflections offer insight into staying grounded and finding purpose amid overwhelming change.

Get book links and resources at 2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at 2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Greg reads from two essays: first, E.B. White’s Once More to the Lake, and then Madeline Ostrander’s How Do You Decide to Have a Baby When Climate Change Is Remaking Life on Earth? contemplating memory and time. [Reading begins at 14:27]

Hear us discuss:

“What if I could have, with the opportunities that were available to me, lived more deeply, appreciated more fully, connected more passionately, and done more to help others?” [04:27] | "I learned to feel regret at a young age... I regretted being who I was because I felt that it was incredibly important to be somebody else." [10:29] | "If we didn't grieve, if we didn't take time to feel deep sadness when we lose someone... then we wouldn't be paying them proper respect and in the sense we wouldn't be paying proper respect to the energy and time that we've invested in them. | “The pursuit of perfection is the biggest force taking us away from our ability to experience beauty and meaning.” [43:28]

Frankie’s reflections bring insight into the complexities of leadership, balancing ambition with fulfillment, and finding joy in the process of creation.

Get book links and resources at 2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at 2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Frankie reads from Tricks of the Mind by Derren Brown, focusing on the idea of how we can reshape our thinking to redefine our limitations. [Reading begins at 24:00]

Hear us discuss:

"I don’t remember a lot of the times that I didn’t win, or I shift the memory and manipulate it so that I feel like I did win, even when I didn’t." [05:00] | "The goalposts very quickly shifted. All of a sudden, I needed more." [08:00] | "One thing, very work-specific, is letting go of the need to grow at all costs. I realized that if you're happy with your business and you enjoy the work, why push for relentless growth?" [13:00] | "I’ve tried to set a principle for myself: not to say yes to things out of guilt or fear. Do I want to attend this event? The answer is no, because I just don’t want to; I’d rather be at home." [15:00]

Dr. Acosta’s journey is defined by his commitment to creating healing-centered learning environments that empower individuals and communities. Through his work, he explores the balance between the promise of technology and the necessity of cultivating spaces for reflection, connection, and personal growth.

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Dr. Acosta reads from The Coming Wave by Mustafa Suleyman, highlighting the duality of technological progress: its potential to unlock new possibilities and its risk of creating unintended consequences. [Reading begins at 20:41]

Hear us discuss:

"Healing isn't about reaching a final state; it’s a continuous process of restoration and grounding." [04:06] | "The disorientation from unprocessed experiences becomes a source of curiosity and growth." [05:54] | "Slowing down doesn't mean stopping; it's about checking for alignment as you move." [12:01] | "The fate of humanity hangs in the balance, and our challenge is to balance the promise and the peril of AI." [22:43]

Today’s guest, Jeremy Lent, is an author and speaker exploring the roots of our civilization’s existential crisis and pathways to a life-affirming future. His award-winning books, The Patterning Instinct and The Web of Meaning trace the flaws of the dominant worldview and propose an integrative approach for a flourishing future. He founded the Deep Transformation Network, a global community focused on ecological civilization and deep transformation toward a regenerated Earth.

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Jeremy Lent reads two pages from Tao Te Ching by Lao Tzu. [reading begins at 20:53]

Hear us discuss:

“The spiritual path is about looking at how things relate to each other rather than focusing on the things themselves.” [06:40] | “To pursue learning, one increases daily. To pursue Tao, one decreases daily.” [23:22] | “The world is a spirit vessel which cannot be acted upon. One who acts on it fails.” [23:58] | “There is no calamity like not knowing what is enough, and he who knows what is enough will always have enough.” [26:58] | “We are all part of this nonlinear complex system that is human society.” [46:20]

Today’s guest, Katherine Morgan Schafler, is a psychotherapist, writer, and former on-site therapist at Google. She holds degrees from UC Berkeley and Columbia University and is certified by the Association for Spirituality and Psychotherapy in New York City.

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Katherine Morgan Schafler reads two pages from Big Magic by Elizabeth Gilbert. [reading begins at 23:48]

Hear us discuss:

• “All people really want is a connection—to be seen, to see others, and connect.” [04:16] | “We don't understand the difference between self-worth and self-esteem.” [15:26] | “Progress is not linear; it’s two steps forward, seventeen steps back.” [38:07] | “There are many right ways to do something.” [19:47] | “If we can just keep showing up day after day after day, something will bloom.” [30:04]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Raj Sisodia reads two pages from Gandhi: His Life and Message for the World. [reading begins at 16:39]

Hear us discuss:

“There’s always a better way. It doesn’t matter how good things already are.” [12:23] | “If you do the right thing, you don’t need to worry about the outcome.” [22:12] | “We must connect with the spirit and the heart, in addition to the mind and the wallet.” [38:20] | “To bring about a better world for all, we must heal ourselves first.” [40:48] | “The decade of determination: We have to make these changes and really pivot.” [35:16]

Will embodies the delicate balance between two seemingly opposing forces: perfectionism and empowerment. As a former restaurateur and co-owner of Eleven Madison Park, he has always been passionate about creating memorable experiences through exceptional service. His book, Unreasonable Hospitality, is a testament to his belief in being as relentless in pursuing people as other restaurants are in pursuing product quality.

Will reads two pages from Setting the Table by Danny Meyer, his first boss and a mentor who profoundly influenced his career. These pages capture the essence of Will’s leadership philosophy—what he calls "constant gentle pressure"—a method of maintaining excellence without sacrificing the dignity of those around him.  [reading begins at 17:54]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Hear us discuss:

"I made the choice to be as unreasonable in pursuit of people as the other restaurants on that list were solely in pursuit of product." [02:05] | "Hospitality and excellence are not friends. But if you pursue them both with persistence, you can achieve something truly remarkable." [09:29] | "Every superpower, if left unchecked, can be your villain story." [10:06] | "I pray the things that we are being forced to do today are things we choose to do tomorrow." [32:19] | "Ask yourself what right looks like and do that." [37:11]

I find it powerful because it’s about the long game. Over your lifetime, give more than you take. There are some seasons when you need to harvest, of course. You trying to build a good life for yourself.

But there should be other seasons when you plant, and when you build.

Adam Grant’s first book was about giving and taking, and the core insight from that book is that people who give, paradoxically, tend to be the most successful, so long as they give in a sustainable way. The people who give without boundaries tend to fail over time.

I suspect on balance that many of us could get better at giving. I also know that for many of us, we have to learn to also receive.

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Kumi Naidoo reads two pages from Dearest MaRiky by Louisa Zondo. [reading begins at 20:56]

Hear us discuss:

“My area of focus right now is very much asking the question, what will it take for activism to win bigger and faster? And if I write that up as a book, I'll probably call it The Reflections of a Failed Activist.” [09:10] | “When we think about health and self-care, we tend to often think more about physical health and we're not sufficiently ready. to embrace the idea that we are dealing with a colossal global mental health crisis right now, from eco-anxiety, from climate anxiety, and also just a sense of injustice that people feel.” [19:42] | "Vulnerability is expressing strength and courage, not an acknowledgment of weakness and failure." [35:12] | "Activism is about people who look at the world, say 'this is an injustice,' and contribute in a way that makes a difference." [37:14] | "The moment of history we find ourselves in, pessimism is a luxury we simply cannot afford." [42:51]

“I am the very model of a modern major general. I've information, vegetable, and animal, and mineral. I know the kings of England, and I quote the fights historical, from Marathon to Waterloo, in order categorical. I'm very well acquainted, too, with mathematical. I understand equations, both the simple and quadratical. About binomial theorem, I'm teeming with a lot of news. Ha ha, with many cheerful facts about the square of the hypotenuse.”

Now, tell me, do you get that from any other podcast? I don't think so. And you may laugh, but I've won a pub quiz by being able to recite that. Now, Gilbert and Sullivan were actually all about the laughs. Their operators are very funny. But outside that partnership, they were both hungry to do more serious work. Now, really the only work I know is by Sullivan, Arthur Sullivan, and it's a song called The Lost Chord. And he wrote it on the deathbed of his brother. And the opening lyrics go like this. 

I was seated one day at the organ. I was weary and ill at ease, and my fingers wandered idly over the noisy keys. I know not what I was playing or what I was dreaming then, but I struck one chord of music, like the sound of a great amen.

One chord, the sound of a great amen. It is such a powerful way to name a moment of insight, of awareness, of presence, of deep familiarity, of awe. So, are you listening for your one chord? Because hearing it can make all the difference.

Marcus Collins, a creative at heart and a product of Detroit, brings a unique perspective to the podcast with his background in advertising, music, and academia. As a researcher and author of "For the Culture," Marcus delves into the complexities of human behavior and cultural influences. His experiences as an outsider and insider have shaped his empathetic approach to understanding the forces that shape our interactions and behaviors in society.

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Marcus Collins reads two pages from Predictably Irrational. [reading begins at 26:47]

Hear us discuss:

"Understanding the impact of the Ten Commandments and curbing dishonesty might help prevent the next Enron-like fraud." [28:47] | "The truth is subjective, right? The world manifests through your meaning making system based on how you see the world." [33:38] | "Culture is always evolving. It's always changing. But those things could change the vector. It can go left or right. It can go negative or positive." [44:22] | "We traverse the world believing that we have all the agency there is that we wake up in the morning, decide what we're going to wear, where we're going to go, we're going to do, who we're going to marry, if we're going to marry." [45:37] | "The influence of the social world in which we navigate is far greater than we give it credit for." [45:24]

Blue, it was thought, is a more delicate and dainty shade and also the color associated with Mary Magdalene, the ultimate mother of Christendom. And pink, connected to red, is the stronger color with martial overtones. The British redcoats, after all, were the greatest fighting force of their time. And in fact, it wasn't until the 1940s that things got flipped and pink got stapled onto girls and blue to boys.

Today’s guest is Kassia St. Clair, a distinguished historian and author with a unique focus on color, textiles, and the everyday aspects of life that often go unnoticed. Her book, "The Secret Lives of Color," delves into the fascinating stories behind different colors throughout history. With a background in design and style writing, Cassia brings a blend of curiosity and discipline to her work, bridging the gap between academia and popular culture. 

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Kassia reads two pages from Homing: On Pigeons, Dwellings and Why We Return. [reading begins at 16:34]

Hear us discuss:

"I think the writer comes to the subject both because of this childhood experience, but also because he himself is struggling with the idea of home." - 00:20:55 | "Home is those friendships, many of which I still am lucky to have. Home is what I'm creating for my daughter. And home is London." [25:03] | "History books are given to subject matter experts and professional rivals. You will quite often see that mistakes are made. People don't tend to agree on the facts, and that's why history keeps on moving forward." [36:20] | "I think it's one of the fundamental dances, that dance between freedom and commitment." [38:56] | "Freedom's just another word for nothing left to lose. You know, that sounds both lonely and also at times a little enticing." [39:07]

This is where I think you are right now. It’s the same person who can then say, look how far you've come. Look how you're a different person. They can see the growth and they can celebrate the change to find that person. Also, be that person for someone. Travel with them and speak what you see.

Today’s guest is Lauren Crux, a multifaceted individual with a diverse range of talents and experiences. As a psychotherapist, author, photographer, and performer, she brings a unique perspective to her work. She embodies the essence of self-discovery and growth, inspiring others to explore their own paths with courage and curiosity.

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Lauren reads two pages from The Book by Mary Ruefle. [reading begins at 17:16]

Hear us discuss:

"The far horizon has become the near one. So what do you do when you're looking over the edge? What becomes important?" [01:38] | "I just continue to learn and do my best to figure out how to love life even though I suffer a lot, you know, that sort of thing." [02:07] | "I love the wit and the humor and the absurdity. She uses this formal form of ‘one would, one doesn't.’ These phrases, “I am of the surest that you would be…” It's ridiculous." [23:02] | "I love the ordinary everyday that becomes magical. And sometimes it just remains mundane." [24:43] | “I do a lot of fertilizing and a lot of watering and replanting. And I work at it. It's easy work, but I do work at it." [32:11]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Where do you find your people? I think I’m still looking for mine, and perhaps you are, too. What often happens is there’s an initial rough sort where you get thrown in with others who have similar labels - but that’s just the start of it. It’s up to you to find your people amongst everyone. I realized that I keep looking for people who make me both think and laugh, meaning I need to seek them out to give them the opportunity to do so. Of course, sometimes your people don’t actually need to be found, they need to be rediscovered; they’re already there, waiting for you to reach out to them and say hello. 

Today’s guest is a law professor with articles published in the Columbia Law Review, Yale Law & Policy Review, the American Journal of Criminal Law, and many more. His full name is W. David Ball, but I know him as my friend Dave, someone I met when we were newly minted Rhodes scholars at Oxford in the early 1990s. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dave reads the poem, ‘Ulysses’ by Alfred, Lord Tennyson. [reading begins at 16:45]  

Hear us discuss: 

“I’d decided that I was going to be me, because there’s no way I could fake that.” [9:25] | How to keep your artistic spirit alive: “The essence of creativity is being in touch with who you are, what you want to say to others, and how other people have moved you.” [11:48] | The process of keeping an open heart in your closest relationships. [24:20] | Sitting with ambition (as a Rhodes scholar). [28:13] | Work in the criminal legal system: “I have calluses - not in the sense where I don’t feel, but where my skin isn’t being burnt off.” [33:01]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Vicki Saunders reads from "Astonishing the Gods" by Ben Okri. [reading begins at 18:40]

Hear us discuss:

“I can feel myself being pulled two ways because definitely things are atomizing. Content is coming in shorter and shorter clips. Even paragraphs are shrinking. Shrinking, just like my attention.” [00:00] | "I just don't understand why we… make money, and then give it away to make things better, to solve the crappy things that we did when we made money." [03:04] | “How much energy is this taking? Is it actually creating any impact? And so at some point in the last 30 years, I was like, you know, changing the system is not why I'm here. It's to build a new one.” [11:05] | “How do we want to be together and live together? How do we want to be with one another, to witness each other's gifts, and to share ours with others in this act of reciprocity?” [21:15] | "Dreaming is a muscle. Courage is a muscle. You need to work it, stress it, be kind to it. That's how muscle grows. That's how muscle stays healthy." [37:07]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Scott reads two pages from “The Principles of Teaching Based on Psychology” by Edward Thorndike. [reading begins at 20:30]

Hear us discuss:

"Mastery is a journey that diverts and separates individuals, leading them towards their unique style, voice, and signature move." [01:58] | "The mind is made of specific building blocks, not broad faculties." [26:14] | "The road to improvement is long but sure." [30:26] | "The mysteriousness of talent is that when you get someone who is a real skilled practitioner, they often can't even articulate what the building blocks are." [43:27] | "I feel I'm hungry to find more gaps, not fewer." [44:56]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Kaya Thomas reads two pages from "Positive Obsession" by Octavia Butler. [reading begins at 15:51]

Hear us discuss:

"I think a good mentor listens and understands what the person that they're mentoring really needs, where they're trying to go in their journey and help them just guide them and help them shape their goals." [14:05] | "Positive obsession is about not being able to stop just because you're afraid and full of doubts. Positive obsession is dangerous. It's about not being able to stop at all." [16:16] | "I think for me, it doesn't always manifest in like one particular skill, because for me, I'm not trying to be the best programmer ever or the best software engineer. But I think for me, it's more project based, right?" [18:40] | "Success just looks like more young kids being exposed to these books, because it's important, I think, for all children, no matter their background, to read these types of stories and to realize that difference can be celebrated." [29:13] | "I think for me, WeReadToo is a resource, and it's a free resource. And I always intend to keep it as a free resource. It's not an income-generating thing for me, and that's not the purpose." [30:30]

Get book links and resources at http://2pageswithmbs.com and subscribe to the 2 Pages newsletter at https://2pageswithmbs.substack.com.

Marc Brackett reads two pages from “7 ½ Lessons about the Brain” by Lisa Feldman Barrett. [reading begins at 11:57]

Hear us discuss:

"Emotions are signals to approach or avoid. People's facial expressions, body language, and tone all send signals. I wanna be with you, I don't wanna be with you. I like you, I don't like you, I respect you, I don't." [20:12] | "All emotions are information. The idea that there are good and bad emotions is a myth. Emotions are a product of things happening in our body and mind, based on our life experiences." [25:54] | "Just because you have a proclivity to experience strong emotions like anxiety or frustration doesn't mean you're not good at dealing with it or labeling it. It just means that you have a tendency to feel that way more." [26:47] | "We're endlessly making predictions based on what's going on inside of us and what we're observing in the world around us. That's our emotional life." [36:59] | "The core of this work is that concept that we have to give ourselves the permission to be our true, full, feeling selves, nonjudgmental, compassionate, self-scientists." [38:30]

Jay reads two pages from “Turning Pro” by Steven Pressfield. [reading begins at 27:25]

Hear us discuss:

“When we wrote The One Thing, what became really clear from the success stories is that the people that achieve the most, the businesses that achieve the most, the athletes, the artists, were driven by some inner drive.” [12:16] | “If I'm focused on impact, whatever I'm working on has to matter to me and others. And I don't define the scope of others, because that's a trap.” [21:28] | "Sometimes, when we're terrified of embracing our true calling, we pursue a shadow calling instead. That shadow career is a metaphor for our real career." [29:51] | “The first question we ask is, when someone finishes this book that we haven't written yet, what's the first thing they're going to say about it? And what's the first thing they're going to do differently?” [43:12] | “The things that come with maintaining success are not what got you there.” [52:24]

Amy reads two pages from Attuned by Thomas Hübl. [reading begins at 23:03]

Hear us discuss:

"Trauma energy creates a filter over our perception. Where we are traumatized, our perception of the world is distorted and limited. Awareness is reduced and overshadowed." [26:51] | "Genuine healing has the power to restore distortions and bring about inner and outer coherence, including improved relationships." [27:24] | "In precision is love. Being precise about who you're talking to and present." [30:15] |"We need to get rid of the bifurcation of a leadership development path with the cultivation of spiritual, psychological, and spiritual intelligence. They can't be two separate things." [39:15] | "We naturally care about each other. We naturally care about the world we live in. It's only a traumatized society that doesn't take that as a premise." [40:47]

Austin Kleon is a prolific writer and artist known for his innovative approach to creativity and self-expression. He is the author of several bestselling books, including "Steal Like an Artist," "Show Your Work," and "Keep Going."

Austin reads two pages from “What It Is” by Lynda Barry. [reading begins at 49:24]

Hear us discuss:

The importance of finding inspiration and guidance from mentors and teachers in one's field."The great thing about dead masters is they can't refuse you as a student."  [36:18] | The significance of community and how it can shape one's creative journey. [21:25] | The impact of encountering individuals who open doors to new creative possibilities. [42:31] | The value of simplicity and restraint in creative work. "Creativity is subtraction." [49:12] | The power of self-reflection and questioning in the creative process. "Is this good? Does this suck?" [50:14] | The transformation from enjoying creative work to feeling pressure and self-doubt. [50:45] | The importance of maintaining a sense of play and joy in creative endeavors. [51:53]

Get access to full transcripts and past episodes at https://www.MBS.works/podcast

Do you have a posse of people with whom you create “good trouble?” A small group you can collaborate with to stir the pot, strengthen one another, and step to the edge of what you think is possible? I often wrestle with how to build that type of relationship, and what I should bring to the table as a member. In this interview, we not only get an inside look at relationship building but also, how to identify and overcome the stress that can make us less effective collaborators. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Modupe Akinola is a professor at Columbia Business School, host of the TED Business Podcast, and part of a trio of ladies who set the standard for creating “good trouble.”

Modupe reads two pages from the Genesis, the first book of the Bible. [reading begins at 30:52]

Hear us discuss:

The elusive definition of stress, as given by a stress expert. [00:04:30] | The key factors that create stress in your life: "The demands of a stressful situation can exceed your resources to cope, leading to feelings of stress." [00:05:09] | The first step in addressing the stress: "Noticing your physical and mental state when faced with stress can help you better manage it." [00:06:16] | How to take control and shift your mindset to overcome current stressors. [00:07:02] | Why having stress matters: "Every stressful situation is an opportunity to build resources and overcome future challenges." [00:10:52]

Today, we're pulling one of our best episodes from the vaults, featuring the brilliant Dave Stachowiak.

A famous quote by Albert Schweitzer talks about how small and obscure deeds are far more powerful than public acts that receive acclaim. It goes: ‘[The public acts] were like the foam on the waves of the deep ocean.’ Applying this metaphor to the world of leadership, what’s just foam on the waves, and what’s the sinuous currents of the deep ocean? 

A great podcast that I often listen to - and one that I have been a guest on four times - is Coaching for Leaders, hosted by Dave Stachowiak. This podcast is the portal for his Coaching for Leaders Academy, which helps managers and executives develop leadership excellence. Dave is someone who, I think, is a masterful surfer: he knows the foam and the waves, but he also knows the deep ocean. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dave reads two pages from ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ by Dale Carnegie. [reading begins at 20:55] 

Hear us discuss: 

“Talk to the people listening.” [11:21] | ‘We all think we’re more polarised than we actually are.’ [26:29] | Staying present to discomfort. [30:24] | The structure of the Coaching for Leaders Academy: “We learn best when we’re struggling with something.” [37:50] | Finding struggle to keep learning: “Seeing your mistakes is one of the most important parts of the learning process.” [40:13]

Recommend this show by sharing the link: pod.link/2Pages

Christmastime in Australia is in mid-summer. The Northern hemisphere traditions of ugly sweaters, roasted meats, and roaring fires really just don’t vibe there. We’ve even got a Christmas carol about Santa’s sleigh being pulled along by kangaroos, rather than reindeer. Many years ago, on a hot Christmas day, my family packed a picnic and headed for Tidbinbilla, the nature reserve about an hour’s drive away. When we arrived, we laid out all the food, hung up some wind chimes, and set up a table and chairs in the middle of a river. Sitting there, eating my mum’s plum pudding with the water flowing by waist-deep, with my family - I knew I was happy. 

Of course, happiness is elusive. The stories and expectations we’ve internalised about the requirements to achieve happiness are mostly illusions. Stephanie Harrison is a champion for a wiser path to happiness, or as she calls it, The New Happy. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Stephanie reads two pages from ‘The Way of the Bodhisattva’ by Śāntideva. [reading begins at 12:40]

Hear us discuss:

The reluctance to give back to others: “The path to experiencing fulfilment and well-being is the ways in which we relate to other people.”  [16:15] | The process of learning to serve. [20:06] | Transcending ‘The Eye.’ [24:48] | Is happiness always a spiritual practice?: “Spirituality is about helping us to be human.” [27:28] | Self-care and self-renewal. [34:35]

Recommend this show by sharing the link: pod.link/2Pages

What’s the language you go to when you think of resilience? Common answers include, ‘bouncing back,’ ‘bouncing forward,’ ‘what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,’ or ‘a regathering of yourself.’ I truly believe that the words and metaphors we choose to use around resilience actually influence how accessible that resilience is, to us. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe has spent two decades researching, teaching, and advocating for simple and powerful language around resilience, and the way she puts it is beautiful; resilience is being okay. 

Robyne reads two pages from ‘Man’s Search for Meaning,’ by Viktor Frankl. [reading begins at 20:35] 

Hear us discuss: 

“The weight of the world becomes heavy to carry with two hands.” [4:02] | Describing resilience: “Resiliency is a verb.” [6:44] | Unlearning what’s ‘normal.’ [24:49] | What to unlearn about resilience: “Stoicism is not resiliency.” [27:36] | Getting better at falling apart: “Mistakes are not characteristics.” [29:57]

One of my favorite songs is Hole In The Bucket by Spearhead, the band fronted by Michael Franti. It’s the story of someone walking along and deciding whether or not to give to someone else asking for a dime, for a nickel, for a quarter. As we approach the holiday season, perhaps you’re wrestling with the same challenge as I am - what does it mean to be charitable? How altruistic are you willing to be? In this interview, there’s a twist on that; one that might change everything. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Charlie Bresler is the volunteer executive director of the nonprofit organization The Life You Can Save, and he’s truly been central to it becoming a force.  

Charlie reads two pages from ‘The Life You Can Save’ by Peter Singer. [reading begins at 20:25]  

Hear us discuss: 

Keeping the connection to your values alive. [8:58] | The relationship between structural change and individual change. [15:11] | A combined view of humankind: “I look around the world and I despair, but I also look at human potential and I’m optimistic.” [27:13] | Overcoming your natural selfishness: “It is a missed opportunity to not see the incredible amount of pleasure you can get from saving lives and helping other people.” [28:21] | The challenges of running a nonprofit. [32:04] | Effective hedonism rather than effective altruism: “You don’t have to be an altruist.” [37:51] | The meaning of success. [40:38]

I remember being in New Orleans some years ago where people were offering to read your palm and tell your future. I was interested – I’d like to know how the future pans out. So, I picked somebody, and she proceeded to provide an amazingly disappointing performance that was mostly a combination of boring, wrong, and clichéd. I didn’t get my $20 worth, but what if you could see the future? What would you want to know, and what would you not want to know?

Jonathan Brill is an author and a speaker, but perhaps he’s also the oracle that I’ve been seeking. He is, according to his business card, a Futurist. For the first years of his career, his focus revolved around innovation and what products would shape the future. But then he accepted a new role in a new organization, which he assumed would be more of the same. Irony alert – turns out the future wasn’t as predictable as he thought. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/   

Jonathan reads two pages from ‘The Medium Is the Massage’ by Marshall McLuhan. [reading begins at 17:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

Understanding the shape of a question. [8:13]| Three tips for community building. [11:19] | How to stay engaged, yet be removed. [23:13] | “There are three conversations to have about any situation with another person; What happened? How do we feel about it? And What Happens Next?” [28:15]  | System observation and pattern recognition: “If you have a process for looking at the future, you can know a whole lot more than you imagine.” [30:19]  | Jonathan’s book, Rogue Waves: “How do I increase my optionality and potential, no matter what happens?” [36:59]

Are you living for 70 years, or are you living the same year 70 times?

It’s one of the great existential questions that writers and creators face, too – Am I writing many books, or am I writing the same book many times? Sure, the “best” answer seems obvious, but I’m not sure the true answer is always clear-cut. Malcolm Galdwell made popular a study that showed the difference between two great artists, Picasso and Cezanne; there’s deep and there’s wide, and it’s an eternal rhythm. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Geoff Dyer is a real writer. He’s the award-winning author of four novels, as well as numerous non-fiction titles on D. H. Lawrence, understanding photography, yoga, and more. 

Geoff reads two pages from ‘The Country and the City’ by Raymond Williams. [reading begins at 23:45]  

Hear us discuss: 

The relationship between photography and writing. [6:33] | “Write the book that only you can write.” [11:47] | Self-expression as a learnt practice: “I became a very original writer by being incredibly susceptible to influences.” [11:53] | “The writing life is full of surprises.” [35:06] | The most important lessons in writing. [36:53]

So how are politics going in your country? ... No, no, don't tell me - you're just delighted with how your version of democracy is currently showing up. ... I am truly feeling the pain and the confusion. And the inadequacy, of course, not knowing what to do about it right now.

But what if in the future the good guys win? And if you knew that you were one of the good guys - and I think you are - what would that call forth from you? 

On Rob Hopkins’ website there is a photo of him holding a sign that says, ‘I've been to the future…’ Rob is a father, a husband, a speaker. He's an author, he's an artist. He's a gardener. And perhaps central to all of that. He is an activist. Rob co-founded Transition Network and also Transition Town. 

Rob reads two pages from ‘We Do This ‘Til We Free Us’ by Mariame Kaba. [reading begins at 13:50]  

Hear us discuss: 

“We need to build what I like to think of as being an imagination infrastructure.” [3:32] | How to sustain energy as an activist. [6:09] | The power of ‘What if?’ [11:41] | “And the only reason we're going to do it is if we're able to talk about what the radical transformation of society would be like in a way that is so irresistible and delicious and magnificent that of course, we want to do that.” [18:50] | “What does it mean to be someone whose work unlocks different possibilities and different ways of thinking about the future?” [21:03] | The goal of enlightenment is to free others. [26:41] | “The kind of activist [anyone] can be is entirely something that they shape themselves and is a reflection of what they're passionate about and what they care about and what they grieve for and what delights them.” [39:40]

‘The map is not the territory.’

This is one of those obvious yet profound insights: the thing we use to try and understand reality, is not reality. It’s true for all charts in companies, for instance. While they tell you a lot, they don’t have all the answers. Your map of the world, what does it tell you and what does it not? 

Tiziana Casciaro is Professor of Organizational Behavior at the Rotman School of Management at the University of Toronto, and co-author of the book Power, for All: How It Really Works and Why It’s Everyone’s Business. 

Tiziana reads two pages from ‘The Heart is Noble’ by the 17th Karmapa, Ogyen Trinley Dorje. [reading begins at 26:25]  

Hear us discuss: 

The study of the nonobvious. [6:33] | “When you have a lot of power imbalance, in the long run, bad things tend to happen.” [13:46] | The challenges and consequences of power in organizational spaces. [15:11] | “The world would be infinitely better if we were all more aware of how interdependent we are.” [33:03] | Power for all: “Sharing power doesn’t mean giving up power, it means empowering others.” [37:00] | Moving from certainty to ambiguity: “Remind yourself of the good in you so that you will be able to appreciate the good in others without fearing they will take over.” [42:33] | How human behavior is influenced by context. [46:41] 

What was your first dream that felt big? The first time you set your eyes on something and thought, ‘I’d like to strive for that.’ Or, on the flip side, ‘I’m not accepting the status quo anymore, something needs to change.’ You were probably young, and though the motives may have not been entirely clear to you, it was a moment of stepping up and claiming your authority; of claiming the next best version of you. 

Olatunde Sobomehin is the co-author of the book Creative Hustle, and the CEO at StreetCode Academy, a community-based tech ecosystem that’s preparing the next generation of underrepresented tech leaders with everything from basic computing to virtual reality. 

Olatunde reads two pages from ‘The Life We’re Looking For’ by Andy Crouch. [reading begins at 17:45]  

Hear us discuss: 

“I grew up in an environment where you could believe in the impossible.” [2:13] | What to say ‘yes’ to. [5:43] | How to start betting on your gifts. [8:48] | Dealing with resistance: “Holding onto your principles in moments of resistance is what keeps you grounded.” [12:05] | The notion of being known: “We’re all looking to be known in life.” [22:18] | The power of a shift in mindset. [27:38] | What it takes to reach out and ask for help. [32:36]

I did a beginner’s class in ceramics earlier this year, and it was a pretty interesting experience to go up against a potter’s wheel and lose. Forget actually trying to create a pot, I found it nearly impossible just to get the lump of clay centered on the wheel. I did end up with a few lumpy, bumpy things to glaze - and glazing is its own adventure where you never really know how your project will turn out since every firing in the kiln is different. Do your best, create blindly, have your creation tempered by forces beyond your control, and end up with something unexpectedly gorgeous. Gosh, it’s a bit like life, really.  

Susan Collett is someone I’ve shared a glass of wine with more than once on my balcony, as she lives just around the corner from me in Toronto. She also happens to be one of the pre-eminent artists who works in clay sculpture and printmaking, something she’s been doing successfully for 30 years. 

Susan reads two pages from ‘The Creative Habit’ by Twyla Tharp. [reading begins at 14:15]  

Hear us discuss: 

What art does for the artist, and for the world: “Something good always comes forward out of chaos, difficulty, and struggle, and I want to remind people of their strength amidst fragile times.” [6:32] | How to engage with art. [8:52] | Planning helps the wheel go ‘round. [17:59] | Working through the doldrums as a creator. [20:01] | Our inner critics: “Just because you think it, doesn’t mean it’s real.” [21:52] | The importance of drawing. [25:55] | The next project: “Within one piece there are ten other pieces.” [27:31] | “The clay, itself, teaches you to let go into the materials.” [30:01] | How to find your audience. [33:49]

I often get asked how I sold more than a million copies of The Coaching Habit. I wish I had one, but, of course, there is no singular answer - just a combination of things going well and a healthy dose of magic fairy dust. One thing we got right, though, is the design of the book itself. So many books feel heavy - a wall of text - and I wanted a book that felt lighter, accessible, and non-intimidating. In whatever you’re working on, what experience are you creating? 

Stefan Butcher is an acclaimed graphic designer and illustrator who likes designing books, and questions. When I found him through his wonderful book, 344 Questions: The Creative Person’s Do-It-Yourself Guide to Insight, Survival, and Artistic Fulfillment, I already knew we would get along. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Stefan reads two pages from ‘The Salmon of Doubt’ by Douglas Adams. [reading begins at 19:35]  

Hear us discuss: 

Disrupting the status quo: “I’m weird … but I’m not a threat to anybody, I’m just trying to make my thing happen and help others do the same.” [9:23] | Performative competence versus embodied competence. [13:29] | How to keep your heart open: “It’s not the pain that kills you, it’s the numbness.” [24:22] | The difficult choice of what to work on. [28:40] | The essence of collaboration: “We are each other’s keeper.” [33:31]

As I’m recording this, I’m currently in Australia where we’re about two weeks out from a national referendum on whether or not to change the Australian Constitution to recognise the first peoples of Australia, by establishing a body called the Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander Voice. I’m embarrassed to say that it doesn’t look likely to pass, and by the time you’re hearing this we’ll know for sure. There’s a profoundly worrying general lack of energy and empathy among most Australians, and, to me, feels like a once-in-a-generation opportunity for reconciliation, empowerment, and healing is being missed. It’s confronting to recognise that so many of us live on unceded territories of First Nations, and it’s not easy to know what to do about it. That’s why I’m so grateful to the people doing the work to give the rest of us the chance to do the right things, and make the braver choices. 

Bob Joseph has been steadily changing the world for decades. He’s the President and CEO of Indigenous Corporate Training Inc, a company focused on teaching others how to work effectively with those people who are native to Canadian land, and also the author of a perpetual best-seller in Canada, 21 Things You May Not Know About The Indian Act. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Bob reads two pages from ‘BE DiFFERENT or be dead’ by Roy Osing. [reading begins at 32:15]  

Hear us discuss:

What reconciliation looks like: “It took us 137 years to get into this mess, and I’m hoping it won’t take us 137 years to get out of it.” [14:54] | The three selves: self-determination, self-government, and self-reliance. [17:00] | “A lot of people doing a lot of little things adds up to a pretty big change.” [40:03] | Knowing when to take control, and when to let it be. [40:59] | How to stay patient: “Watch for the little victories and celebrate those.” [45:08] 

The very first hotel that I got quarantined into, I looked out over Darling Harbour in Sydney. I knew just over the rise was the Sydney Opera House. It was my only view for two weeks. It changed constantly. It was on fire, lit up by a sunset. It was looming with threat as a storm passed by. It became lit up at night. It was actually a Ferris wheel, a carnival, like an underworld at my feet. We're constantly searching for what's new. We're constantly distracted. And sometimes it's wonderful to be forced to look and look again at what's right there in front of you. 

Miranda Keeling trained as an artist, initially with a degree in glass making, but has gone on to grace the big stage and to attack the tyranny of the blank page. Seeing small differences is Miranda’s thing; noticing the details of everyday life and elevating them with the various forms of art that she makes. And to be honest, this is something Miranda's done from the very start. 

Miranda reads two pages from Mr. Rabbit and the Lovely Present by Charlotte Zolotow. [reading begins at 14:54]

Hear us discuss:

What do you have to let go of to fully embrace the identity of being a writer? [8:36] | Writing and courage: “You're not swept along by somebody else's agenda in the same way you've got to set your own agenda, you've got to go into wherever you work and start and look at that blank page and it's a very different way of being.” [11:16] | “The simple things that you might not notice are the things that could be the most important.” [18:23] | How to ‘slow down’ and get in tune with your thoughts: “There's a meditation technique I did years ago, and I sometimes do still where you imagine that your mind is a blank theater and the curtains are open and you just wait to see what comes onto the stage. You try not to follow it or get too emotionally entangled, but you notice the players move across the stage.” [26:40] | Elevating the ordinary: “In the hot shop, there'd be lots of debris left over from [the glass blowers’] work, and I would take that glass debris from the floor and use it in my pieces… And my point being that's, again, me taking something pretty ordinary. … And I'm trying to get the best I can out of it and elevate it into something else.” [32:42]

What does it take to be an ambassador, to be a diplomat? …If you had to list three core characteristics, what do you think they should be? Now, for me, part of me goes all espionage... You know, it's about blending in. It's about staying skeptical, perhaps wearing tweed. Part of me, of course, thinks of my brother Nigel, who actually works for the Department of Foreign Affairs in Australia and has actually played ambassadorial roles in Ankara, Turkey and in Berlin. Now, Nigel is the soul of discretion. He has a deep curiosity, also not that much tweed. But after this conversation, which you're about to listen to, a conversation where I realized that perhaps we all play the role of a diplomat and wondering if the key skills are actually empathy, rebellion, and a good left hook. 

Tom Fletcher is the principal of Hartford College in Oxford University. …I invited Tom because in his lifetime, he's been a diplomat and also a writer and a campaigner. But along the way, there were several things he was not, or at least not successfully. “Having felt evangelical about the importance of diplomacy,” Tom says, “I left diplomacy to write a book about why diplomacy matters so much and looking particularly at the way that technology is changing statecraft. That was The Naked Diplomat [which] came out in 2016, and that did well. So I then got to write two more books. 10 Survival Skills for a World in Flux is about the future of learning… And then in August, I put out my first novel, which was called The Ambassador…” Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Tom reads two pages from The Ministry for the Future by Kim Stanley Robinson. [reading starts at 17:25]

Hear us discuss:

“But I guess all that adds up to this conclusion that education is upstream diplomacy. And that basically, if I want to make a real influence on the future of the country and the planet, then actually being here, developing young people, head, hand and heart is where I should be.” [4:07] | “A great diplomat, it’s about the last 3 feet, as Edward Murray said. It's about that ability to really understand the person you're talking to, know what baggage they arrive in the room with, and to almost zoom out of a situation in a room and use that empathy to understand what's going on.” [6:32] | Modern-day trends, including the rise of distrust, which makes it harder to govern. [24:05] | Ten skills for the future, including taking control of your life and becoming an active participant in shaping the future. [27:03] | “And here, because of the way the power structures work, it's much more important to lead from behind. Much more of it is about setting the tone, the sense of the overall direction and letting then the strategy emerge, rather than trying to dictate some sort of top down.” [32:40] | “There is space for hope.” [37:35]

My great grandparents feel fictional to me. Sure, I’ve seen pictures and I know their names, but do I feel their touch and influence? No, not really. My grandparents, however, are four presences I definitely notice.

What have you learnt from your ancestors? And how might they be present in you, today? 

Sarah Lewis is an art and cultural historian, author of The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery, founder of the Vision & Justice initiative, and a professor at Harvard. She’s much more than that, though, and as she reminds us, we are all more than our pedigrees. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Sarah reads two pages from the speech-turned-essay, ‘The Artist’s Struggle for Integrity’ by James Baldwin. [reading begins at 16:30]  

Hear us discuss: 

“The narrative you construct about who you are, and who the world should be to accommodate you, is foundational for your life.” [8:50] | Success ≠ safety: “Your achievements don’t accompany you when you have to produce all over again.” [24:43] | Prioritizing projects and saying no to distractions. [26:50] | The diverse perspectives and approaches to tradition. [28:59] | Unlikely teachers: “I take lessons now from greater sources than I did in the past.” [33:21] | Filling the role of the elder as you age. [36:02] | “The seeming accident oftentimes never is.” [43:20] 

The idea at the heart of my book, How to Begin, is that we unlock our greatness by working on the hard stuff. Now, when I wrote the first draft of that book …and I shared it with friends, the feedback I got was it was confusing and a deeply underwhelming mess. And so when I picked myself up off the floor and I picked through the rubble to see if there's anything that could be rescued, the most precious thing was, in fact, that line, ‘We unlock our greatness by working on the hard stuff.’ But here's the rub. What that is saying is this: how will you disrupt what's comfortable for you now? How will you stir things up? How will you confuse and disappoint and anger some people around you? How will you make them and you nervous? …When you step up and you work on the hard stuff, you step forward into the unknown and to that ambiguity, you find something thrilling and important and daunting.

I first came across Tony Stubblebine because, back in the day, he started Coach Me, an early habit tracker app. He turned that app into a successful coaching business, in part by becoming one of the most successful writers on Medium, a platform devoted to publishing, writing about human stories and ideas. When the founding CEO of Medium wanted to step down, Tony welcomed the opportunity to step into that role, and grow Medium and widen its impact. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Tony Stubblebine reads two pages from Once A Runner by John L. Parker, Jr. [reading begins at 21:41]

Hear us discuss:

The desire to create your own company. “A lot of entrepreneurs have a lack of trust. [A belief that] I cannot put my career in the hands of other people.” [7:00] | When you say yes to something, you’re saying no to other things. Tony talks about what that meant for him when he was called back to be the CEO of Medium. [10:00] | “People especially are like, well, we got to put a bunch of ideas out and let them compete, and the best ideas will win. I think what we found is the best ideas don't win and the loudest ideas, the most toxic ideas, often are the ones that are winning.” [15:00] | Endurance athletes can experience expending all of their mental and physical resources; going to and tipping right over the edge of what is possible by observing and accepting what is happening rather than negotiating whether or not they can do it. There are benefits to this type of focus for everyone, and mental conditioning such as meditation can help you achieve them. [24:55] | “People always want a quick fix, but the most reliable fix is a massive amount of work.” Tony shares how increased calm and mental awareness can help you use what you know more effectively, even when you’re under great pressure. [34:16] | When you look beyond habits you find identity and belief which have a greater influence on the choices that you make. [41:40] | What can change for you when you think about your life in terms of a cognitive budget, and reducing the number of opportunities you have to make choices that aren’t aligned with your identity. [50:35]

In today's fast-paced world, change is the only constant. Yet, how do we truly understand, manage, and channel the emotions that accompany transformations, both personal and organizational? Whether you're an individual seeking personal growth, or a leader aiming to steer an organization, understanding the emotional dimensions of change can be a game-changer. 

Dr. Hilary Jacobs Hendel is a prominent psychotherapist and author. Driven by her personal experiences with anxiety and depression, Hilary embarked on a journey into psychotherapy. Her profound insights into emotions, coupled with her unique approach to therapy, has been an eye-opener for many. Hilary ventures into her experiences and the pivotal role of Accelerated Experiential Dynamic Psychotherapy (AEDP) in her practice. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Hilary reads two pages from The Transforming Power of Affect: A Model for Accelerated Change by Diana Fosha. [reading begins at 17:38]

Hear us discuss:

The connection of body and mind: “I noticed the sensations of tension in my chest that told me that I was anxious, and I breathed, as I was instructed to do, and voila, the anxiety went down, not up.” [5:58] | The 7 “selfish” emotions and why you shouldn’t judge them: “You can't stop emotions from happening. All you can do is be aware when they happen and change your response to them.” [17:13] | Do our emotions weaken us, or make us stronger? [22:51] | What is the role of others in helping us hear the whisper of our emotions? [26:28] | “A basic education in emotions is the path to a more peaceful world.” [34”25] | How being in tune with your emotions brings out your authentic self: “Emotions are physical experience, they're there for a good reason, and if we avoid them, we really lose a connection to our authentic self and to others.” [41:46]

Tolstoy famously started his novel Anna Karenina, “All happy families are alike; every unhappy family is unhappy in its own way.” A twist on that: stories of success are all alike. Stories of failure are where things get interesting. 

I love someone who knows how to share their failures well. When I get introduced as a keynote speaker, I have them mention that I was banned from my high school graduation and left law school being sued by one of my professors. And that's just a start. If I say so myself. My failures are what's helped me find my edge. 

Suneel Gupta presents as a success. He's an entrepreneur who founded and led Rise, a breakthrough wellness company. He is a bestselling author and a speaker and a visiting scholar at Harvard Medical School. But that's not where he started. At one point, he was literally the face of failure. “Today,” Suneel says, “I make a career out of studying what I think are some of the most extraordinary people on the planet at their most disappointing moments to understand what it was that helped them endure through that.” Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Suneel reads ‘The Alchemy of Opposites’ by Rodolfo Scarfalloto. [reading begins at 15:45] 

Hear us discuss:

Long-term success can come from short-term embarrassment, if you know what to do with it. [2:26] | Your purpose is “already inside of you. And the work, for lack of a better word, is really just to strip these layers away to understand what that essence is.” [10:25] | Merging ambition and joy is about “figuring out what makes you come alive.” [20:00] | “What I realized over time is that this journey that we're on, is an everyday journey. …you don't need to wait for big moments in order to put what you're learning into practice.” [25:40]

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What makes you uncomfortable? And, how do you hold yourself when you’re in that space? Some years ago, I noticed that a pair of leather shoes I was wearing was badly creased across the top of the right shoe. A friend of mine pointed out the problem - when I get nervous in a group, I sit on the edge of my seat and jiggle my right leg. When I do this, I’m on my toes, and I crease the leather, damaging the shoe. If being in a group makes me nervous, what’s it like to sit with death? 

Dr. Kathryn Mannix is a woman who has spent her life being in the presence of death. Not only that, but doing it with grace, tenderness, humor, and kindness. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Katheryn reads two pages from ‘Gratitude’ by Oliver Sacks. [reading begins at 17:45]  

Hear us discuss: 

“The most important skill at the bedside of dying people is knowing how to be.” [10:30] | The preciousness of being alive. [22:56] | The importance of listening in living an essential life: “I’ve got nothing, but I’m here.” [25:44] | What a tender conversation calls for. [29:23] | “Stories are the way we understand everything.” [33:16] | The lost value of silence. [42:46]

Recommend this show by sharing the link: pod.link/2Pages

One thing I don't mention often is that the thesis I wrote for my law degree was an attempt to combine my interest in literature with a perspective on law. So I wrote about the phenomenon of plain English: that's trying to write law without the legalese. And I tried to write about it through the lens of literary theories of language.

I honestly did not understand what I was trying to do. And also nobody in law school understood what I was trying to do. What I can see now, with the benefit of hindsight and some self-esteem and some marketing speak, is that I was a boundary rider. I've come to learn that the interesting things often take place on the edges, those intermediate areas where X meets Y and some sort of new life is born. Brian Christian is a boundary rider too. He's just way more successful and interesting than law school Micheal.

He thinks deeply and writes about deep patterns of life through technology and AI and algorithms. He's the author of The Most Human Human, the Alignment Problem, and Algorithms to Live By. After the introduction I just gave you, you're probably going to guess that Brian isn't just a science guy. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Brian reads from Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter. [Reading begins at 15:10]

Hear us Discuss: 

Metaphor can be one of the main mechanisms by which science happens. [6:20] | Rules that are delightful to break. [24:35] | “I have this deep conviction […] we are on to some philosophical paydirt here. There is a very real way in which we are building [AI] systems in our own image, and as a result they come to be a mirror for ourselves.” [28:40] | What is the heart of the human experience? [38:10] | “Humans are not so special.” [42.50]

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I’m a bit of a geek about models, specifically the ones that reveal patterns and invite new possibilities, helping us expand our understanding of what the world is. My favorites are: the periodic table and its various alternatives, the Roman architect Vitruvius’ three attributes for a building, and finally, the alphabet. A book I love is Edward Gorey’s The Gashlycrumb Tinies, an alphabet book telling the tale of the demise of young children. If this isn’t your style, the good news is that not all alphabet books have grisly endings.  

Haesun Moon, Ph.D., is an academic, a communications scientist, a teacher, a coach, and an author. Her new book is a wonderful addition to the world of coaching, Coaching A to Z: The Extraordinary Use of Ordinary Words. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Haesun reads two pages from ‘On Dialogue’ by David Bohm. [reading begins at 15:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

“The gap between what I heard and what you said is sometimes larger in familiar relationships.” [21:12] | Creating shared meaning on a more societal level: “Culture is nothing more than the accumulation of micro conversations.” [22:08] | How to create shared meaning when different truths exist. [27:01] | Remaining curious rather than defensive. [30:20] | Coaching A to Z. [34:09]

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I still remember reading my first Nicholson Baker book, The Mezzanine. This extraordinary book slows down the pace of life to one where all the details are able to be noticed. For someone like me–a little bit in my head and moving too fast–reading the book resembles bullet time from The Matrix movies, only with the detritus of everyday living zipping past, instead. 

Madeleine Dore reminds me of myself; both a great author and a great asker of questions, though they differ a bit from mine. She’s made a career out of asking obvious questions to important people, with all of the answers she’s received ending up in her best-selling book I Didn’t Do the Thing Today: Letting Go of Productivity Guilt. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Madeleine reads two pages from ‘Encyclopedia of an Ordinary Life,’ by Amy Krouse Rosenthal. [reading begins at 12:12] 

Hear us discuss: 

Making more generous assumptions. [16:24] | The relationship between playfulness and routine. [17:15] | Knowing what’s essential vs transitory about yourself: “It takes a long time to become who you are.” [20:12] | “Things are just experiments and projects—we’re not tied to anything forever.” [25:28] | The complexity of awaiting your next project. [26:35]

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How are you labeled? How have you been labeled by others? And how have you labeled yourself? You listen to this podcast, which means that you're the type of person who thinks about who they are in this world, who they've been and who they're becoming. One of the ways we claim a sense of self is by the labels we give ourselves. What at first can be a helpful handhold can soon become a straitjacket, what William Blake would call a “mind forged manacle”. I'm wondering how your current labels serve you. And I'm wondering how they don't.

Caroline Webb is a renowned expert in the field of behavioral science and how to apply its insights to improve your daily life. She is the author of the popular book How to Have a Good Day. Her career began as an economist working on public policies, but she soon realized her true passion was in the human aspect of economics, specifically what makes a good team and leader. She eventually returned to behavioral economics, where she continues to work as a leadership coach and executive coach. Webb is known for her courage to step out of her comfort zone and take voyages of discovery, she encourages others to do the same. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Caroline reads two pages from ‘How Emotions Are Made’ by Lisa Feldman Barrett. [reading begins at 10:52]  

Hear us discuss:

Looking for the “sticky” or resistant parts of change when you’re trying to make a decision. Ask yourself, “What if I were not fearful about that? What would I do? Could I do that in a small way?" [5:05] | “Your emotions are just your brain's best guess at trying to make sense of what's going on, both in what you're experiencing and perceiving from the outside world, but also what you're noticing in your body." [15:12] | “We don't want to reinvent or question everything all the time, because this is actually the way that our brain navigates, see trillions of pieces of data at any given moment. We need to have an interpretation hypothesis." [21:10] | "Maybe what we're experiencing in our heads is a simulation, but that doesn't mean it isn't a wonderful life." [32:23] | "I think of my personal mission in life as being of service to others and helping other people thrive." [33:42]

The previous guest on this podcast was W. Dave Ball, a fellow Rhodes scholar whom I met at Oxford. One of the things I remember from my time there is the signs that were everywhere: Don’t walk on the grass. Entry forbidden. Don’t bring a naked flame into the Bodleian Library. Fair enough - I understand the last one, but most of the signs just made me feel like rebelling against them. Maybe this was the artist in me. There’s something about transgression that can be extremely powerful. 

Stuart Semple is a British artist who never really had a choice about what he wanted to be when he grew up. Today, he’s not just an artist, but also an activist. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Stuart reads two pages from ‘Just Kids’ by Patti Smith. [reading begins at 8:40]  

Hear us discuss: 

“I believe an artwork isn’t truly finished until it meets an audience. I think art happens when people connect with the things that we make.” [6:24] | The sacrifices of an artist. [15:12] | Seeking inspiration: “Ideas find you.” [16:53] | The role of failure in the success of creating art. [18:07] | “There’s a peak in your work when it’s the best it’ll be, and if you fiddle about with it any more, you’re actually doing damage.” [21:34] | Criticism of your work does not equal criticism of you. [21:57] | The story of Black 3.0 [24:29] | What it takes to be a great collaborator. [27:28]

Where do you find your people? I think I’m still looking for mine, and perhaps you are, too. What often happens is there’s an initial rough sort where you get thrown in with others who have similar labels - but that’s just the start of it. It’s up to you to find your people amongst everyone. I realized that I keep looking for people who make me both think and laugh, meaning I need to seek them out to give them the opportunity to do so. Of course, sometimes your people don’t actually need to be found, they need to be rediscovered; they’re already there, waiting for you to reach out to them and say hello. 

Today’s guest is a law professor with articles published in the Columbia Law Review, Yale Law & Policy Review, the American Journal of Criminal Law, and many more. His full name is W. David Ball, but I know him as my friend Dave, someone I met when we were newly minted Rhodes scholars at Oxford in the early 1990s. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dave reads the poem, ‘Ulysses’ by Alfred, Lord Tennyson. [reading begins at 16:45]  

Hear us discuss: 

“I’d decided that I was going to be me, because there’s no way I could fake that.” [9:25] | How to keep your artistic spirit alive: “The essence of creativity is being in touch with who you are, what you want to say to others, and how other people have moved you.” [11:48] | The process of keeping an open heart in your closest relationships. [24:20] | Sitting with ambition (as a Rhodes scholar). [28:13] | Work in the criminal legal system: “I have calluses - not in the sense where I don’t feel, but where my skin isn’t being burnt off.” [33:01]

I remember reading that one of the ways to become luckier is to consider yourself a lucky person. So - whether or not you think of yourself as lucky - if you had to name your lucky break, what would it be? That moment when things tipped in your favor, when you inadvertently unlocked the secret to the next level or noticed a clue to a hidden door; that moment when things changed? 

Dr. Emily Balcetis is one of the most sought-after voices on Motivational Science. Her research sees her delving into the differences in judgments and behaviors from person to person. Emily shares what she finds out through her keynote speaking and her writing, and continues to shape and define the cutting-edge research in her role as Director of the Social Perception, Action and Motivation Lab. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Emily reads two pages from ‘How to Change’ by Katy Milkman. [reading begins at 14:55]  

Hear us discuss: 

What to trust in the world, and what to not: “Sometimes what we’re going to know, is that we don't know. And what you do know is that you might not be right.” [9:21] | Navigating failure and being kind to yourself: “It doesn’t need to be a failure, the experience can be labeled a learning opportunity.” [19:55] | The complex relationship between the journey and the reward. [25:15] | How optimism and pessimism affect the pursuit of goals: “The fear of the unknown stands in the way of people hitting the reset button.” [31:01] | Must you say no to the present in order to say yes to the future? [33:48] | “Don’t hesitate to seek out additional perspectives.” [38:34]

For the final episode, I chose a chapter that’s about resetting a relationship that’s gone through a tough spell. Though I hope that’s not how you’d describe these past few episodes, it’s a nice segue back into normal programming with some of my fantastic guests. Our last storyteller is Sanyin Siang; coach, leadership expert, and recipient of the first Thinkers50 Marshall Goldsmith Coaching award. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Michael reads from Chapter 18 of his newest book, ‘How to Work with (Almost) Anyone.’ [reading begins at 1:25]   

Hear us discuss: 

Why reset a relationship? [2:57] | Should we begin again?: “Avoid the reset, and the relationship will likely continue to deteriorate. Take the opportunity to plant the seeds of recovery, and you’ll likely strengthen it.” [4:55] | What to think and talk about when starting over. [5:19] | How do we finish this?: “All things, BPRs as well, have their season.” [6:20] | Sanyin Siang reveals one of her best working relationships: “A great way of showing someone that you care about them is to give them honest feedback about what they’re doing well, as well as what they could be doing better.” [10:00]

As it’s book launch day, I picked one of the deep-dive chapters titled How to Amplify What’s Good to share with you, and towards the end you’ll hear from Leadership Strategist, author, and my good friend, Dan Pontefract. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Michael reads from Chapter 21 of his newest book, ‘How to Work with (Almost) Anyone.’ [reading begins at 1:33]  

Hear us discuss: 

Exercise 1 - Archetypes. [3:05] | Exercise 2 - The Boasting Friend: “Even if we have some inkling of what makes us great, we are unwilling to name it out loud.” [5:25] | “When you see yourself through another’s eyes, you often see things you may not have noticed before.” [7:44] | Dan Pontefract talks about his worst working relationship: “Being punctual is not poisonous; being present is actually perfect.” [8:02]

My new book is on the near, near horizon. It’s called How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, and if you interact with other human beings in your life, this might be a helpful book for you. It goes live on June 27th, and I’ve got some terrific pre-order bonuses, which you can find linked below. 

In this episode, you’ll hear about one of the five questions of the keystone conversation; the ‘bad date’ question. Then, Jennifer McCollum, CEO of Linkage, shares a story that builds delightfully on that very question. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Michael reads from Chapter 5 of his newest book, ‘How to Work with (Almost) Anyone.’ [reading begins at 1:12]  

Hear us discuss: 

“There is ‘wisdom in the wound.’” [4:33] | The contributing factors in the death of a working relationship: “It wasn’t just you and them, the time and place always influence what happens.”

Jennifer McCollum on her worst possible relationship: “Regardless of whether or not I’m the leader, I learned that I need to honor and value the uniqueness that each team member brings.” [7:14]

My new book is on the near, near horizon. It’s called How to Work with (Almost) Anyone, and if you interact with other human beings in your life, this might be a helpful book for you. It goes live on June 27th, and I’ve got some terrific pre-order bonuses, which you can find linked below. 

The audio book is ready to go, as well. So this episode isn’t just a monologue from me, I've invited some of my friends to share a short story of what they’ve learned from their best - or their worst - relationships. In this one, you’ll hear from Pamay Bassey, the Chief Learning Officer at Kraft Heinz. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Michael reads from the opening chapter of his newest book, ‘How to Work with (Almost) Anyone.’ [reading begins at 1:00]  

Hear him discuss: 

“Every relationship becomes sub-optimal at some point … but every working relationship can be better.” [2:44] | “Best possible relationship doesn’t mean that there are never difficult moments, but rather, there’s commitment and capacity to fix the damage and carry on.” [7:46] | The role of the keystone conversation: “The keystone conversation gives you a deeper understanding of the person across the table from you.” [8:40] | Pamay Bassey tells the story of her BPR. [19:49]

How do you navigate the big decisions in your life? There’s a maxim by Thomas Jefferson you might have heard: “In matters of style, swim with the current; in matters of principle, stand like a rock.” It’s one of those quotes that I instinctively and immediately agree with, only for it to become slippery and elusive once I sit with it. The swimming or the standing isn’t hard, it’s knowing what’s style and what’s principle. What do you stay open to, and what do you stay firm about? 

Ryan Hawk is a fellow podcaster; the host of The Learning Leader Show with over 500 episodes in the can and still going strong. He’s a keynote speaker and the author of two books: Welcome to Management: How to Grow from Top Performer to Excellent Leader, and The Pursuit of Excellence: The Uncommon Behaviors of The World’s Most Productive Achievers. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Ryan reads two pages from ‘The Wright Brothers’ by David McCollough. [reading begins at 17:00]  

Hear us discuss: 

“Leadership is about leading yourself first before you can lead anybody else.” [4:19] | Putting in the work to become more non-judgmental. [4:54] | Maintaining a healthy view of failure and success. [21:19] | “You’ve got to get through the bad ideas to get to the good ones.” [36:06] | How to find your learning edge. [36:51] | “My ultimate favorite thing is having a deep, long-form conversation with a person wiser than me.” [39:57] | What distracts you from being yourself? [43:23] | The value of consistency. [46:48]

Once, long ago, I chatted with Brené Brown about the possibility of writing a book together about paradox. With everything she could bring, and not entirely sure what I’d bring other than the idea for the book, I thought we could co-create something fantastic and fascinating between us. My guess is that she considered it for about two seconds, and instead decided to write Daring Greatly, one of her great books. It’s clear that Brené made the right call here, but that didn’t stop me from loving paradox - it’s the place where logic bends, where unexpected combinations create magic, where the impossible works. Paradox is where the shy mysteries of the universe peek out and wave ‘hello.’

Brandi Stanley is a writer and podcast host, both under the name This Plus That. You’ll find her happily thriving in many intersections, including the one where this podcast lives; the intersection between the written word and speaking it out loud. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Brandi reads two pages from ‘Matter and Desire’ by Andreas Weber. [reading begins at 16:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

Sources of strength and stability. [8:59] | “Conflict breeds intimacy, but intimacy requires real comfort with death.” [22:37] | Attachment wounding explained. [25:42] | How to reconcile with your paradoxes: “My queerness now feels so intertwined with my mysticism that I can’t find a place to separate them at all.” [27:10] | The gift of being a fugitive. [33:18] | How are you nourishing yourself? [35:09] | “All of my faults are not singular.” [37:48]

I’m working on building community at the moment, and I’ve noticed I have two types to focus on. The first is a wider net - I know a lot of people a little bit, and I’d like to know some of them more. Inspired by the book The 2-Hour Cocktail Party, I’ve been hosting monthly events where I pull everyone together and ask them all to answer a question, which effectively seeds the next round of introductions and conversation. The second type of community is a deeper vessel. I invite other men at about the same stage of life as me, and we discuss what it means to be an elder in our different worlds. Here, my hope is that I’m asked questions that’ll help call me forth. Two different communities, but for each, good questions right at their heart. 

Hal Gregersen is a man who loves questions, perhaps even more than I do. He’s dedicated his life to it as an author, speaker, and former Executive Director of the MIT Leadership Center. Hal and I both believe that questioning can transform the future of learning and make the world a better place.   

Hal reads an article titled, ‘Let Your Life Speak’ by Parker Palmer. [reading begins at 21:20]  

Hear us discuss: 

The greatest gift that trust brings. [5:04] | Maintaining an open heart and a healthy relationship with trust. [6:57] | How heartbreak can sometimes be a good thing: “Life is fleeting; it comes and goes faster than we think.” [31:05] | The feeling of deep gladness: “When you have that moment where eyes light up - that’s deep gladness.” [36:59] | Alexander Papaderos, Elie Wiesel, & the meaning of life: “For a lot of my life, I was trying to get rid of this bad part of my past instead of understanding and embracing it … it’s not only okay, but it’s you.” [40:35]

A little over 6 weeks are left until my new book, How To Work With Almost Anyone, comes out, and I’m already selling it persistently online. I’ll tell you why; preordering is a powerful thing. It helps get the flight wheel spinning before release, but it can also remove risk in the creation process. Inviting others to express their support for a project in the making can give you the cash, the resources, or the confidence you need to take the leap. In other words - and this applies to all of us - invite people in early and ask for their support. 

Ash Ambirge is one of the original pioneers of the creator economy. Having been on the road herself since 2009, Ash writes newsletters and books about the modern digital nomad experience, remote work, and using creativity and technology to do what you love from wherever you are. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Ash reads two pages from ‘Tell Them Who I Am’ by Elliot Liebow. [reading begins at 18:20]  

Hear us discuss: 

Managing your freedom: “I like to take as many opportunities as I can because I’m in a position to do so.” [26:58] | “All of us are obligated to do what we can with the ideas that we have.” [28:38] | The prison of imposter syndrome: “It’s okay if you don’t think that I’m qualified because I’m going to prove to you that I am.” [29:43] | Recognising when to move on. [31:09] | What does ‘home’ mean? [33:57] | How to not become a parody of yourself. [37:10]

I’m the most amateur of magicians. I have about ten tricks, all of which I learned in ten minutes or less because I need instant magic and instant gratification. However, I’ve come to realize that there are two types of tricks: one that requires a gimmick to work and one you can perform with whatever’s in front of you. Almost all of my tricks are gimmick-based, but the latter is most extraordinary to me - you’re able to seize the moment and change the audience’s perception of the possible. That’s magic.

Vinh Giang is a teacher, a keynote speaker, and a magician. As the son of Vietnamese refugees, his life began with a prophecy, a mold he had to break out of in order to pursue his desire; the art of prestidigitation. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Vinh reads two pages from ‘The Almanack Of Naval Ravikant’ by Eric Jorgenson. [reading begins at 16:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

“As long as I kept blaming other people, I kept being invisible.” [4:18] | How to deal with not meeting the expectations of others. [9:21] | “Security was shoved down my throat all my life, I became nauseated by it.” [13:15] | What does authenticity truly mean? [21:04] | “Don’t be so attached to who you are in the present that you don’t give the future version of yourself a chance.” [25:43] | What’s your relationship with ambition? [25:54] | The art of precision. [28:14] | How to become resilient to failure. [30:23]

Recommend this show by sharing the link: pod.link/2Pages

If you had the chance to listen to my recent interview with Zach First, you heard us talk about how in a time of turbulence, organizations - whether big or small - can be candles in the darkness, and how being a manager means being a barrier against tyranny. That’s all good in theory … but how do you start a movement in practice? 

Thibault Manekin is a commercial real estate entrepreneur. He might not seem like my usual guest at first, but Thibault is a real estate guy, with a twist. 

Thibault reads two pages from ‘The Alchemist’ by Paulo Coelho. [reading begins at 16:05] 

Hear us discuss: 

“In order to grow an idea we have to understand that it doesn’t belong to us.” [8:01] | “Telling people how to be is a quick fix, but solves nothing long-term. It sticks in your head, but isn’t in your heart.” [13:08] | Chasing your dreams while also going beyond your own desires. [21:48] | Learning to surrender to your heart: “Outside of your comfort zone is the only place where true growth happens.” [26:34] | Using both your head and your heart in the work you do in an organisation. [28:37] | Staying on the path, even in dispiriting times. [35:25]

For one of Marcella’s significant birthdays, we went to the Fogo Island Inn, an extraordinary building on an island off the East Coast of Canada. More than just an extraordinary building, being there is an extraordinary experience - a hotel built into the rock of the island, and into the roots of the community. I’ve stayed at more than my fair share of hotels in my time, but the Fogo Island Inn is the first and only one that comes with a mission to save the world. 

Zita Cobb is the founder and CEO of Shorefast, a charity organization that, through business, preserves culture, sustainability, and economic well-being of local communities. These aims are evident in her additional role as the innkeeper of the aforementioned Fogo Island Inn. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Zita reads two pages from ‘The Third Pillar’ by Raghuram Rajan. [reading begins at 14:40]  

Hear us discuss: 

How to start a movement: “Communities aren’t problems; they’re assets.” [20:33] | Risk and resilience in community building. [25:30] | The balance between playing the long game and the urgency for progress: “We have to survive the present to get to the future.” [28:46] | The importance of dignity. [30:49] | How to maintain your optimism. [33:00] | Finding the right people to make change happen. [35:28] | Embodied communities: “We only know who we are in relation to each other.” [37:50] | Being the one to reach out and say hello. [40:20]

Way, way back, when it was raining too hard to go out and kick a ball around, my brother, Nigel, and I had a game we occasionally played - pick-up sticks. If you don’t know this game, imagine about 30 different-coloured bamboo skewers in a pile. You had to remove them, one by one, without shifting the delicately-balanced structure. This is the first memory I have of a game where the goal was to remove things. This wasn’t Lego or Monopoly where you strive to build, this was surgery. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Leidy Klotz is a professor at The University of Virginia and the author of one of my favorite books on change, Subtract: The Untapped Science of Less. 

Leidy reads two pages from ‘Soccer in Sun and Shadow’ by Eduardo Galeano. [reading begins at 11:50]  

Hear us discuss: 

Finding balance between play and work. [15:32] | How to enjoy subtraction and enter the flow state: “Subtraction is additional work.” [16:57] | The connection between grief and the discipline of less. [20:16] | Knowing when to subtract: “When you expand your view of a situation, you might see that the thing you’re trying to do is being done somewhere else.” [22:22] | A story of identifying the essential. [26:43] | Prizes and punishments of change: “We don’t have to choose between adding and subtracting; they’re both complementary approaches to making changes.” [29:20]

The smell of wood smoke, particularly burning eucalyptus wood as I’m sitting around a fire in the Australian bush, always conjures awe. As Dacher Keltner put it in his new book, “Awe is the feeling of being in the presence of something vast that transcends your current understanding of the world.” Starting a fire is a delicate thing; you collect all the materials and spark the flame, hoping it catches, and once it does, you nourish it until it becomes robust - or, for me, becomes an invitation to awe. Here I’m speaking both literally, and metaphorically. 

Ozan Varol is a literal rocket scientist, but that’s been only one of his careers so far. He’s my latest guest whose roots are in Turkey, and his book Awaken Your Genius has just been released. 2PP: Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Ozan reads two pages from ‘Big Magic’ by Elizabeth Gilbert. [reading begins at 17:47]  

Hear us discuss: 

Leaning into your individuality. [6:50] | “No one can compete with you at being you.” [10:18] | The price of genius. [13:08] | Chasing the originality unicorn. [20:07] | “Authentic means staying true to who you are at the moment.” [24:01] | Internal approval is greater than external approval: “The more we strive for guaranteed success, the less original we become.” [26:54] | Answering curiosity’s call. [37:10] | Stop overthinking: Learning to listen beyond your brain’s ideas. [39:51]

Growing up, there were a couple of my dad’s high school track trophies on the sideboard in our house. I loved those trophies as a kid - Dad, on the other hand, was pretty indifferent to them, having moved on to other things. Be it physical or not, what trophies do you have? And which ones are you now chasing? How do your past and possible achievements shape and enliven you, and in turn, how do they constrain you? 

Laura Gassner Otting is a best-selling author, a keynote speaker, a coach, and a friend. 

Laura reads two pages from ‘Stones from the River’ by Ursula Hegi. [reading begins at 24:00]  

Hear us discuss: 

How to stop chasing approval from others. [7:40] | The difference between institutions and cathedrals. [17:38] | “Grow to love the part of you that is always in process.” [31:43] | Finding both success and happiness. [33:54] | “There’s success for my ego, and success for my heart.” [40:38] | Success then versus now: “Success is knowing who I am and how I can bring that to people who want to see more of me.” [41:53]

One of the most powerful lessons I learnt was from the author Peter Block, who said that a characteristic of someone living an adult life is the willingness to make hard decisions. The same thing is often said about leadership, but I really like that he’s shifted that simple and difficult task to be present at the heart of being human. Block says that the inevitable outcome of making a hard choice is two feelings; guilt and anxiety, which, then, aren’t personal flaws but rather features of having the courage to be an adult in your own life. 

Debbie Millman is a designer to her bones. She’s the author of seven books, one of the OGs of podcasting, and an educator who runs the first ever graduate program in branding at the School of Visual Arts. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Debbie reads a passage from ‘Consider the Lobster’ by David Foster Wallace. [reading begins at 20:33]  

Hear us discuss: 

“Design is about intention.” [5:48] | The Panther by Rainer Maria Rilke. [11:46] | Sitting with failure: “The only feeling we don’t metabolize is regret.” [14:28] | Becoming a leader that inspires. [24:11] | The difference between a great leader, and a great salesman. [27:03] | The struggle of finding balance in servant leadership. [31:12] | Designing your life: “Take small steps up the mountain … you don’t want to peak until the day before you die.” [36:31] | Success Vs. Purpose. [41:22] 

I read recently that there’s a drop in the number of people going to university to study the Arts, particularly Literature, because, “It’s just not practical.” I did both an Undergraduate and a Master’s Degree in Literature, and I know that it’s influenced who I am and how I see the world every day. In my undergraduate years, I learnt through an autobiography course that there’s no static sense of who you are. We become who we are through the stories we tell ourselves about who we are. What intrigues me is figuring out which aspects of who I am it’s helpful to commit to, and where and when the adventure is in letting in ambiguity and variation. Sometimes, it turns out, wisdom is not increased certainty, but actually a willingness to recognise all that is uncertain. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Anil Seth is a professor of Cognitive and Computational Neuroscience at The University of Sussex. He is the author of a wonderful book called Being You, and the creator of The Perception Census, a new study aiding in understanding how we actually experience the world. 

Anil reads two pages from ‘Consciousness Explained’ by Daniel Dennett. [reading begins at 17:20]  

Hear us discuss: 

What is consciousness? [3:07] | “We rely on metaphors and science, but we inevitably get misled by them.” [25:10] | “It seems to us that we experience the world as it really is.” [29:13] 

What it means to ‘grow wise.’ [34:17] | The fragility of consciousness. [35:45] | The nature of the Self: “Part of our sense of self is co-constructed through the minds of others.” [37:09]

I’ve been very lucky to work with some of the TED Fellows, a program where young people of promise are given access to the TED world. For three years, I attended a gathering of these extraordinary young people to offer some support, facilitation, and coaching. What became obvious to me over the years was the commonness of brilliance, achievement, and disintegration. They were often exhausted, overwhelmed, and struggling with their so-called success. Of course, there was a range of coaches and experts who were able to provide support and accelerate most of them to the plateau of sustainability. As you know, I love good questions, so: What does ‘sustainable’ success look like? How do I not sacrifice my life for my ambition? 

Laurel Braitman is a best-selling writer, secular clinical chaplain-in-training, and the Director of Writing and Storytelling at the Stanford School of Medicine where she teaches those in the medical field to communicate more clearly and vulnerably with their patients. She’s also a TED Fellow, which is where I met her a decade and some ago. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Laurel reads two pages from ‘When Breath Becomes Air’ by Paul Kalanithi. [reading begins at 20:15]  

Hear us discuss: 

“There’s really no such thing as happiness, only happy-sad or sadly happy.” [14:10] | 

Gaining a lived understanding of love. [24:30] | “Let life surprise you, maybe it’ll surprise you in a good way.” [29:03] | Learning to dance with your limitations: “My drug of choice is excellence.” [30:52] | What success really means. [35:52] | The mission for What Looks Like Bravery. [40:32] | “There’s nothing like the gift of believing in someone when they don’t believe in themselves.” [45:58]

I had a lucky break when I started working. Having lingered in university for more than a little while, I found myself at 25 without any real idea of what I wanted to do. I applied to many places, and finally got hired at an innovation agency. The real gift of working there was the founders’ aversion to business as usual. For many of us, though, the first few years of working are mostly about learning how to be a good worker. There are rules, unspoken and spoken, on how to behave. Do you know the rules that you’re following? 

McKinley Valentine is the creator, writer, and curator of The Whippet, a cult-hit newsletter with an eclectic mix of science, history, weirdness, and unsolicited advice. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

McKinley reads two pages from ‘The Expectation Effect’ by David Robson. [reading begins at 18:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

What it takes to be a good editor: “There are no rules to editing.” [4:37] | The positive and negative powers of your mindset. [24:56] | Finding peace with your diagnosis (ADHD): “It gives you an explanation, and I don’t think anyone ever feels worse after getting an explanation.” [33:15] | “People have an addiction to reading negative stuff because it feels important, and real, and true.” [37:58] | How the expectation effect works. [40:52]

It’s 1985, I’m 17, in my final year of high school, and I’m just having fun. There was very little then that hinted at who I’d become now. Though my favorite class was Literature, I wrote nothing aside from the essays that were due the next day. Once, during a school assembly, a classmate of mine got on stage with his cello. Barely knowing what a cello was, I wasn’t all that moved when he announced he’d won some big prize. Then, he played it. While I didn’t really understand the music, I remember thinking, ‘Oh, this is what it means to be really good at something!’ and just how extraordinary it is to be one of the best of the best. 

Neil Heyde was that classmate. After graduation, Neil became - and still is - a member of a world-class quartet, a recorded artist, and head of postgraduate programmes at one of the most prestigious music institutions, the Royal Academy of Music in London, which has been his home for decades now. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Neil reads two pages from ‘The Craftsman’ by Richard Sennett. [reading begins at 18:20]  

Hear us discuss: 

“You have to set the agenda for what you want to do.” [4:15] | Discovering the goal through the work you do. [23:57] | “I think of practice as a workshop.” [27:36] | The relationship between your mind and your hand. [29:55] | What it’s like to collaborate in a quartet: “I love working in an environment where one has to grapple a bit.” [33:37] | How to not allow disagreements to destroy your relationships. [34:59]

Our inability to think long-term is encapsulated in a system we barely notice: the way that we write the year. Implicit in the number ‘2023’ is that when we get to 9999, there’s nowhere left to go. We’ve programmed into our lives that we can’t imagine beyond eight thousand or so years into the future, which is nothing in the grand scheme of a geological age. The Long Now is an organization that writes the date with an extra digit. Alternatively, it’s written as ‘02023,’ expanding our ‘now’ from a ten thousand-year span, to one that’s a hundred thousand years. This change has allowed me to stop staring a few feet ahead of me, eyes fixed to the path, and instead look to the horizon and remember the bigger game afoot. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Peter Brannen is an author and science journalist, contributing to The Atlantic, The New York Times, Washington Post, and others. 

Peter reads two pages from ‘Teaching a Stone to Talk’ by Annie Dillard. [reading begins at 10:40]  

Hear us discuss: 

“Unless you’re aware of what you’re looking at, you go around the world blind to what’s been lost.” [5:15] | Maintaining a sense of awe and adventure. [16:00] | Is having a meaningful life worth it? [18:40] | Understanding the Earth’s precarity: “The more I study Earth, the more I come to realize our cosmic luck.” [22:13] | Discovering the essentials of life on Earth. [26:45]

Who do you think of when I say, ‘designer’? My brain goes into all sorts of nooks and crannies, and one person that comes to mind is you. A designer is someone who solves a problem. We can all probably improve at how and what we design, but have no doubts, you’ve already crossed the thresholds. You are already a designer. 

Ayse Birsel’s center of authority has always been in industrial design, making products that make life better. However, her current work has shifted beyond that. Now, Ayse is focused on what it takes to design a good life. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Ayse reads two pages from ‘The Creative Habit’ by Twyla Tharp. [reading begins at 16:40]  

Hear us discuss: 

Deconstruction-reconstruction: “How do I go from what I know today to what I can imagine in the future?” [9:25] | “Design creates optimism.” [13:38] | The feeling of starting a creation from nothing. [21:37] | Maintaining creative habits. [23:08] | The transition from pessimism to optimism: “Pessimism is seeing the problems, optimism is seeing the problems as opportunities.” [27:30] | Manufacturing fresh friendships. [30:05]

Malcolm Gladwell famously made popular the idea of 10,000 hours of practice for mastery in his book Outliers. This comes with all sorts of caveats, but the concept holds up an interesting mirror. The other day I was asked, ‘How do you start writing books?’ As I attempted to give an answer, I realized that I’d been writing to find my own voice for 40 years now. I must have written about a billion sentences by now, and I’ve come to understand where my edge is. Perhaps that’s what mastery is - not a completion but rather an increasingly subtle understanding of where you’re honing the edge of yourself and your craft.  

Eric Klein is first and foremost a dear friend and returning guest, but also a spiritual teacher and author. Five years ago, I’d have added that his focus is geared towards bringing greater spirit, mindfulness and meaning to the workplace, but that’s shifted a bit since then. Presently, Eric offers the same through his community at Wisdom Heart, helping people to be on a spiritual path, while still walking in the world. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Eric reads two pages from The Bhagavad Gita. [reading begins at 18:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

The task of rejecting the conventional path to pursue the call of spirituality: “I thought I could ‘hack’ the process and not come to terms with my inheritance.” [9:49] | Undergoing spiritual experiences without crisis. [26:14] | How to manage your expertise: “To be a good teacher, always have part of your mind in the student’s seat.” [32:32] | “Reality can only wake up in your life as you.” [38:22]

How are you labeled? How have you been labeled by others? And how have you labeled yourself? You listen to this podcast, which means that you're the type of person who thinks about who they are in this world, who they've been and who they're becoming. One of the ways we claim a sense of self is by the labels we give ourselves. What at first can be a helpful handhold can soon become a straitjacket, what William Blake would call a “mind forged manacle”. I'm wondering how your current labels serve you. And I'm wondering how they don't.

Caroline Webb is a renowned expert in the field of behavioral science and how to apply its insights to improve your daily life. She is the author of the popular book How to Have a Good Day. Her career began as an economist working on public policies, but she soon realized her true passion was in the human aspect of economics, specifically what makes a good team and leader. She eventually returned to behavioral economics, where she continues to work as a leadership coach and executive coach. Webb is known for her courage to step out of her comfort zone and take voyages of discovery, she encourages others to do the same. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Caroline reads two pages from ‘How Emotions Are Made’ by Lisa Feldman Barrett. [reading begins at 10:52]  

Hear us discuss:

Looking for the “sticky” or resistant parts of change when you’re trying to make a decision. Ask yourself, “What if I were not fearful about that? What would I do? Could I do that in a small way?" [5:05] | “Your emotions are just your brain's best guess at trying to make sense of what's going on, both in what you're experiencing and perceiving from the outside world, but also what you're noticing in your body." [15:12] | “We don't want to reinvent or question everything all the time, because this is actually the way that our brain navigates, see trillions of pieces of data at any given moment. We need to have an interpretation hypothesis." [21:10] | "Maybe what we're experiencing in our heads is a simulation, but that doesn't mean it isn't a wonderful life." [32:23] | "I think of my personal mission in life as being of service to others and helping other people thrive." [33:42]

A question for you - who do you trust with your work? Whatever project you may be working on, it can’t be down just to you to bring it out into the world. You have to find the right champions; people who will play their necessary parts in creating, refining and sharing whatever it is that you’re building. As an author myself, it took me a while to find the right partners for my books. Eventually, I found the people I trust, and who understand what I’m trying to achieve. These are people who have my back. So, who has yours? 

JeVon McCormick is the CEO of Scribe Media, and board member at Conscious Capitalism, Inc. He also works with The StartEdUp Foundation, where students pitch their entrepreneurial ideas for a chance at $25,000 and the opportunity to collaborate with the best-in-class people who can help them turn those ideas into a business. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

JeVon reads two pages from ‘Think and Grow Rich’ by Napoleon Hill. [reading begins at 21:19]  

Hear us discuss: 

“You can learn through negatives.” [5:50] | Reclaiming the power of your name: “Whatever we’re not changing, we’re choosing.” [9:14] | Finding peace with money. [31:17] | How fear taints leadership and corporate culture. [33:03] | “In most cases, when people use the word ‘fear,’ they are fearing something that may not even happen.” [36:53] | Balancing the need for individual action, and the need for community support. [43:32]

Two things I love about Whitney Johnson are her relentless drive for self-improvement, and her incredible generosity. As the CEO of WLJ Advisors, she aims to help you grow your people and your business. Whitney is best known for her book Disrupt Yourself, but today she’ll be reading from her first book Dare, Dream, Do: Remarkable Things Happen When You Dare to Dream. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Whitney reads two pages from her book ‘Dare, Dream, Do.’ [reading begins at 4:50]  

Hear us discuss: 

Dreaming with your beliefs in mind: “We do dream within the context of our values, but how do I know what my values are?” [2:02] | The role of quotes in articulating your values: “Attaching a quote to something adds feeling, emotion and memory, and evokes so much more than individual words do.” [9:00] | A quote’s shelf life: Does it remain resonant over time? [12:54]

When I first published The Advice Trap back in 2022, it was accompanied by a bonus course I created called ‘The Year of Living Brilliantly.’ Fifty-two different teachers, each teaching one powerful lesson on video. If you’ve been a participant, you’ll know today’s guest because his episode is one of the most popular. If you haven’t taken the course yet, you’re in luck - you’re about to meet one of its brilliant faculty members. 

Bobby Herrera is the author of The Gift of Struggle, a short, excellent book on leadership, and the co-founder and President of Populus Group. Populus is Latin for ‘people,’ and that is absolutely where Bobby’s focus is. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Bobby reads two pages from ‘The Wisdom Pyramid’ by Brett McCracken. [reading begins at 8:44]  

Hear us discuss: 

Discerning what knowledge should be applied. [12:36] | “I’ve simply stopped focusing on anything that I can’t control.” [16:18] | How to both stand out and fit in. [18:39] | The art of surrendering power. [21:02] | Learning to sit with betrayal: “I’ve come to expect disappointment.” [23:30] | Remaining whole while being committed to giving: “Two’s a trend.” [27:08]

I’m cheering you on for the rest of 2022 and into 2023. I hope the holiday break is restful, delightful, and renewing for you.

I’ll be back with the next great interview on 2 Pages with MBS on January 10th!

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I had two quite different experiences of a library when I was a child. My school’s librarian quite liked books but didn’t really like kids. I was basically scared away from that space. Luckily, my local library was a whole other adventure. There was the kid’s section upstairs where I could wander the stacks and find books I might like, and then came that moment when you go down and dip your toes into the grown-up section below, which opened up many new worlds. Books open up worlds, and libraries help you stumble over the books you never knew you would love, until you did. 

Shariff Abdullah is the Director of the Commonway Institute, an organization that seeks to create a world that works for all. He’s well-educated, was a lawyer, is an author, has traveled the world, and has worked in over 120 different cultures across 45 different countries. It’s an impressive resume for someone who was raised in, according to Shariff, America’s worst city. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Shariff reads two pages from ‘The Timeless Way of Building’ by Christopher Alexander. [reading begins at 25:35]  

Hear us discuss: 

“When I was 8 years old, I not only figured out that there is something fundamentally wrong with our society, but that we can change it if we actually want to.” [2:50] | Maintaining an open-hearted perspective. [7:27] | Identifying and practicing your version of perfection: “There is a win for all, but if what I want in my world is for you to lose, we’ll never get to that point.” [32:16] | Living beyond our individuality. [40:39]

What makes you uncomfortable? And, how do you hold yourself when you’re in that space? Some years ago, I noticed that a pair of leather shoes I was wearing was badly creased across the top of the right shoe. A friend of mine pointed out the problem - when I get nervous in a group, I sit on the edge of my seat and jiggle my right leg. When I do this, I’m on my toes, and I crease the leather, damaging the shoe. If being in a group makes me nervous, what’s it like to sit with death? 

Dr. Kathryn Mannix is a woman who has spent her life being in the presence of death. Not only that, but doing it with grace, tenderness, humor, and kindness. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Katheryn reads two pages from ‘Gratitude’ by Oliver Sacks. [reading begins at 17:45]  

Hear us discuss: 

“The most important skill at the bedside of dying people is knowing how to be.” [10:30] | The preciousness of being alive. [22:56] | The importance of listening in living an essential life: “I’ve got nothing, but I’m here.” [25:44] | What a tender conversation calls for. [29:23] | “Stories are the way we understand everything.” [33:16] | The lost value of silence. [42:46]

Actor Viggo Mortenson once said: ‘To be an artist, you don't have to compose music, or paint, or be in the movies, or write books. It's just a way of living. It has to do with paying attention, remembering, filtering what you see and answering back, participating in life.’ If you tried on the identity of an artist, how does it fit? Trying it myself, I’m struck by the idea that being an artist is participating in life. So, if you were an artist, how are you participating in life? What does that tell you about the art you’re creating, and who, more than anyone, do you make that art for? 

Chadney Everett is a lifelong artist and explorer of the human experience. His work has been featured in galleries, theater, television, and even in film. Chadney’s drive to create art is rooted in connection, which has led him to his current role as the Senior Creative Director at Meow Wolf. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/   

Chadney reads two pages from ‘The Dehumanization of Art’ by José Ortega y Gasset. [reading begins at 17:35]  

Hear us discuss: 

“Thinking about the audience as you make it is not going to create the best art.” [7:05] | How the hostile majority responds to unpopular art: “The function of art is to form a connection between the artist and the viewer.” [20:50] | What is immersive art? [26:43] | Navigating the resistance to art: “Art is metaphorical.” [31:27]

My first job out of university was with a company that specialized in innovation. It was there that I really began to understand how creativity flourishes when there are restraints. We were once hired by Kellogg’s to help do something new for Corn Flakes, but weren’t allowed to change the product, packaging, or marketing. I remember realizing that I needed to figure out the rules in order to decide which ones needed to be broken. 

Whatever your situation, there’s liberation in understanding what rules need to be followed, and which ones can be played with. I’m wondering, how might you more joyfully break a few rules? Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Andri Snær Magnason is one of Iceland’s best-selling and most prolific authors, with experience writing across almost every genre, including film.

Andri reads two pages from ‘Einstein’s Dreams’ by Alan Lightman. [reading begins at 16:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

“As an artist, you always have to push your limits and try to reach out of your comfort zone.” [5:00] | The beauty of simplicity: “One of your roles is to not waste your reader’s time.” [18:42] | A vision for the future. [25:12] | “The way we perceive time, both lived and unlived, can go from feeling like an eternity, to feeling like a flash.” [30:40]

I’ve done my fair share of work in organizational development, some of which involved helping big companies set up visions, missions, and values. Most of the time that work honestly drove me nuts. The phrase ‘death by lamination’ sums up the majority of corporate values. They come up with a bland list, stick it on the wall, and hope that it will shift the company’s culture. One of the greatest farces in the world of value statements, though, is including integrity in that list. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Robert Chesnut is the former Chief Ethics Officer at Airbnb, and author of Intentional Integrity: How Smart Companies Can Lead an Ethical Revolution.  

Robert reads two pages from his book, ‘Intentional Integrity.’ [reading begins at 6:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

What prevents companies from being ethical?: “Integrity is contagious.” [1:46] | Having the courage to not be silent: “As a leader, being willing to encourage and reward people for speaking up can change the entire culture.” [3:18] | The evolution of ethics throughout the years. [11:33]

Despite its good intentions, activism can be exhausting. Finding motivation to keep the fight going can be a struggle, but connecting with others is key. A small circle of compassion goes a long way.

I am delighted to speak with Loretta Ross, an activism pioneer in the human rights and reproductive justice movements, professor, public intellectual, nationally recognized speaker, and co-author of best-selling books on reproductive justice. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Loretta reads two pages from Jamil Zaki’s inspiring book, ‘The War for Kindness.’ [reading begins at 11:36]

Hear us discuss:

“At the heart of all activism is hope; the belief that things can change, and that you can make a difference in bringing about that change.” [7:02] | “The people who are opposed to human rights think they're fighting us, the human rights movement, but they couldn't be more wrong. They're fighting forces way bigger than us because they're fighting truth. They're fighting evidence and history, and most of all, they're fighting time.” [8:40] | Making mistakes and being afraid to mess up: “I've learned over time to not do things that I can't look in the eye the next day.” [18:51]

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When we think of energy, we tend to limit it to the physical. This week’s guest rejects that narrow view, sharing that energy exists in four dimensions: the physical, the mental, the emotional, and the spiritual. When all four work in harmony, we can unearth hidden fuel to power our potential.

I am delighted to speak to Simon Alexander Ong, award-winning life and executive coach, business strategist, keynote speaker, and author of Energize: Make the Most of Every Moment. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Simon reads two pages from Brianna Wiest’s insightful book, ‘The Mountain is You.’ [reading begins at 11:59]

Hear us discuss:

“One of the things I had to unlearn as an entrepreneur was an attachment to outcome.” [7:38] | Change happens when the pain is too much: “Most people… do not embrace the difficulty of altering their habits until they simply do not have another choice.” [12:10] | “We can't finish a jigsaw puzzle without [first] starting the puzzle, and only when we start putting the pieces together do we begin to have clarity on what that [picture] is.” [23:00]

I am an accidental entrepreneur, and as exhilarating as it’s been, it’s also been really difficult at times. Now, entrepreneurship has been hard for me as a white man and also for one of our previous guests, Bobby Herrera, as a Latino man. However, the statistics are endless when it comes to the struggles of being a woman entrepreneur. 

I am delighted to speak to Nathalie Molina Niño, a woman with many titles, some of which include CEO of O³, an investor, an entrepreneur, and the author of Leapfrog: The New Revolution for Women Entrepreneurs. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Nathalie reads two pages from her brilliant book, ‘Leapfrog.’ [reading begins at 7:39]  

Hear us discuss: 

“If you’re exceptional at anything, you’re probably going to have to become an entrepreneur at it.” [4:28] | “Being an entrepreneur is more of a life skill than a career path … I never saw it as optional.” [4:40] | How to find courage: “Ambition doesn’t have to be ego-centric.” [13:15]

What skills do you think an entrepreneur requires? I’ve been mulling it over and I’ve come up with four things: marketing, selling, a tolerance for risk, and persistence. You’re probably thinking what I’m thinking – who wouldn’t benefit from building capacity in those four areas? Perhaps we should all consider ourselves entrepreneurs. 

Asheesh Advani is a friend, a successful entrepreneur, and a social innovator who’s led Junior Achievement Worldwide since 2015. Considering that JA Worldwide has been nominated for the 2022 Nobel Peace Prize, I’d say he’s doing okay. Asheesh has come full circle, because he’s also an alumnus of JA, and his participation in the group is actually what led him to entrepreneurship early in life. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Asheesh reads two pages from ‘Loonshots’ by Safi Bahcall. [reading begins at 12:30]  

Hear us discuss: 

“Shifting mindset is easier than shifting skill set.” [9:37] | Innovation on a global scale: “The core of our organization is embracing the fact that true diversity exists.” [16:53] | How to manage and nurture relationships. [21:23] | The balance between control and influence in JA Worldwide: “It’s possible that other people know more than you do.” [27:24] | How helping young people become more entrepreneurial can contribute to a more peaceful world. [30:34]

I’m a bit of a geek about models, specifically the ones that reveal patterns and invite new possibilities, helping us expand our understanding of what the world is. My favorites are: the periodic table and its various alternatives, the Roman architect Vitruvius’ three attributes for a building, and finally, the alphabet. A book I love is Edward Gorey’s The Gashlycrumb Tinies, an alphabet book telling the tale of the demise of young children. If this isn’t your style, the good news is that not all alphabet books have grisly endings.  

Haesun Moon, Ph.D., is an academic, a communications scientist, a teacher, a coach, and an author. Her new book is a wonderful addition to the world of coaching, Coaching A to Z: The Extraordinary Use of Ordinary Words. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Haesun reads two pages from ‘On Dialogue’ by David Bohm. [reading begins at 15:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

“The gap between what I heard and what you said is sometimes larger in familiar relationships.” [21:12] | Creating shared meaning on a more societal level: “Culture is nothing more than the accumulation of micro conversations.” [22:08] | How to create shared meaning when different truths exist. [27:01] | Remaining curious rather than defensive. [30:20] | Coaching A to Z. [34:09]

Atul Gawande is a top-notch surgeon, a champion for healthcare reform in the U.S., and an outstanding author. One of his books, The Checklist Manifesto, discusses the power of using a checklist to create better outcomes in hospitals–specifically to stop unnecessary deaths during surgery. It was fascinating to learn about the resistance, from surgeons in particular, to this seemingly minor change. I, for one, love wrestling with how to make people in systems change, but it appears that trying to make changes in healthcare is one of the stickiest challenges of them all. 

Richard Winters M.D. is a practicing emergency physician at the Mayo Clinic, but also the director of leadership development for the Mayo Clinic Care Network, a healthcare executive coach, and–like Atul Gawande–an author. His new book is You’re the Leader. Now What? Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Richard reads two pages from ‘The Heart Aroused’ by David Whyte. [reading begins at 17:05]  

Hear us discuss: 

“Leaders are not individuals who create followers, but rather those who create other leaders.” [8:24] | Identifying and integrating the fears that may be limiting us: “When you shine a light on these monsters, you begin to see that they are sometimes not so real.” [21:09] | Finding the balance between changing yourself and trying to change the system. [29:39] | What organizational culture truly means. [32:07] | “The process of writing is a process of reflection.” [34:25]

I still remember reading my first Nicholson Baker book, The Mezzanine. This extraordinary book slows down the pace of life to one where all the details are able to be noticed. For someone like me–a little bit in my head and moving too fast–reading the book resembles bullet time from The Matrix movies, only with the detritus of everyday living zipping past, instead. 

Madeleine Dore reminds me of myself; both a great author and a great asker of questions, though they differ a bit from mine. She’s made a career out of asking obvious questions to important people, with all of the answers she’s received ending up in her best-selling book I Didn’t Do the Thing Today: Letting Go of Productivity Guilt. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Madeleine reads two pages from ‘Encyclopedia of an Ordinary Life,’ by Amy Krouse Rosenthal. [reading begins at 12:12] 

Hear us discuss: 

Making more generous assumptions. [16:24] | The relationship between playfulness and routine. [17:15] | Knowing what’s essential vs transitory about yourself: “It takes a long time to become who you are.” [20:12] | “Things are just experiments and projects—we’re not tied to anything forever.” [25:28] | The complexity of awaiting your next project. [26:35]

I’m working on a new book about how to strengthen working relationships, so I’ve been consuming a lot of content around the subject. I can divide the teachers I’ve been learning from into two different camps. First are the mechanics; the people laying out what to do. They’re okay, but I prefer the storytellers; the people who realize that stories, not rules, are what change people. It is both an extraordinary and a learnable thing to know how to tell a good story. 

Will Storr is a storyteller, and the award-winning author of 6 critically acclaimed books including Selfie, The Science of Storytelling, and most recently, The Status Game. The Times called him, “One of our best journalists of ideas.” Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Will reads two pages from ‘Incognito’ by David Eagleman. [reading begins at 11:58] 

Hear us discuss: 

“You’re not living a story, you’re playing a game.” [5:37] | The danger of writing yourself as the hero: “You’ve got to accept that you might be wrong about things.” [16:47] | The positives of the hero-making brain: “I would argue that a certain amount of comforting delusion is good.” [21:05] | How to manage your status: “Status isn’t about being rich or famous, it’s about feeling like you have value.” [23:59] | The connection between the ‘I’ and the ‘we.’ [29:36]

I am a charming man. It’s an optimistic view of who I am. But like everyone else, I also have my faults. This means that one of the great gifts of my life are the people who are on my side but aren’t likely to fall for my whole schtick. Do you have people who, in the nicest possible way, hold you to be the very best person you can be? 

Tom Wiese is the co-founder of Studio/E, and he’s spent the past few decades designing tools and teaching people how to explore, launch, and navigate their lives and businesses. 

Tom reads an essay written by Michael from the book ‘End Malaria.’ [reading begins at 14:05] 

Hear us discuss: 

How a scar became a source of strength. [19:02] | Gaining the courage to recognise your scars. [22:07] | The myths of leadership: “Self-leadership is creating a vision that you desire for your life, then holding yourself accountable to it.” [24:45] | “When you’re in the unknown, you don’t know what’s going on unless you take some action.” [29:34] | Finding the balance between courage and safety. [31:34] | Knowing when to stop exploring and start making use of your discoveries: “Exploring alone is really hard; you need to have support.” [35:06]

Bobby Herrera, author of The Gift of Struggle, is the co-founder and CEO of Populus Group. He is also a proud U.S Army Veteran, an unwavering champion for the underdog, and, most importantly, an all-pro dad to three amazing kids. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Bobby reads two pages from his book, ‘The Gift of Struggle.’ [reading begins at 5:47] 

Hear us discuss: 

Being an underdog, but not disempowered: “One of the most important questions we can ask ourselves in leadership is, ‘Who am I becoming?’ and staying on that journey–imperfectly, but consistently.” [2:33] | How intimidating struggle can be when coupled with inexperience: “We all have a PhD in struggle.” [8:25] | “The long way is the shortcut.” [14:54] | Renewing the commitment to struggle: “Asking for help is a sign of strength.” [15:30]

I’m writing a new book that’s due for release in the middle of 2023, and I was just sitting at a coffee shop reading my editor’s response to the first draft. She’s been reviewing it for about three weeks, and those three weeks have been nerve wracking. I’ve released something into the world but not yet grasped what’s next. Anything is possible right now. In other words, I’m sitting with the ambiguity of it all and trying not to freak out. 

You know how sometimes products just seem perfect for the task at hand? The reimagination that goes into creating them is the work of a product designer, and those individuals are taught by people like Andrea Small. She started out studying architecture and metalsmithing at Miami University, but later moved into product design after it was recommended to her. Andrea now teaches strategy and design research at the Stanford d.school, where people use design to develop their own creative potential. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Andrea reads two pages from ‘The Book of Eels’ by Patrik Svensson. [reading begins at 16:15] 

Hear us discuss: 

“Being open to anything is both good and bad.” [6:57] | How to release control when navigating ambiguity. [7:53] | Is ambiguity truly synonymous with uncertainty? [21:33] | Learning to sit with the discomfort of ambiguity: “It’s physically active to navigate ambiguity–that’s why it seems so exhausting.” [23:19] | The relationship between ambiguity and individuality. [30:54] | “There is no perfect solution to navigating ambiguity.” [40:26]

Keep this between us, but I have an offer for you. There’s this thing called the Insiders Club; it’s amazing and exclusive, and the other people who are a part of it are truly extraordinary, like you. We don’t let anybody in–it’s invite only, and the invites are rare … This doesn’t really exist, but it’s tempting to be an insider, isn’t it? 

Actually, even though you’re not in the Insiders Club, you already are an insider. You belong to certain groups that have rules to keep people in, and others out. So, just as you’re already an insider, you’re already an outsider, too. My question is: What are you doing to create insiders, and to mitigate the pain of being an outsider? 

Dominic Packer is a Professor of Social Psychology who studies how groups shape our identities, decisions, and our lives. He teaches at Lehigh University, and he’s recently co-authored a book, The Power of Us, with a fellow psychology professor, Jay Van Bavel. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dominic reads ‘Experiments in Ethics’ by Kwame Appiah. [reading begins at 15:48] 

Hear us discuss: 

“I think you can be both with and against.” [8:47] | The practice of effective dissent: “If you’re dissenting for the good of the group, your goal is to persuade.” [9:52] | The evolution of social identity over the last decade. [21:20] | Managing and navigating identity politics: “Power has always been held by those who had identities.” [24:41]

Nir Eyal is a former lecturer at the Stanford Graduate School of Business, and the author of Indistractable: How to Control Your Attention and Choose Your Life. His first book Hooked: How to Build Habit-Forming Products explored using the psychology of revolutionary products such as Facebook and Slack to make other products engaging and habit-forming. Indistractable, on the other hand, is about breaking bad habits - getting away from the things that distract us from what we really want to do with our time, attention and life. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

He reads two pages from a chapter from his book ‘Indistractable,’ entitled How to be An Indistractable Lover. [reading begins at 3:40]

Hear us discuss: 

“If you asked me today what superpower I’d want, I would want the power to be indistractable.” [2:07] | Surfing the urge: The key to mastering your internal triggers. [8:52] | “Most distraction begins from within us.” [9:54] | “Time management is pain management.” [10:13]

‘Why bother’ is a question we ask ourselves at certain moments in our lives; moments when life beats us down and we’re finding it harder and harder to keep caring. How do we muster up the will to fight for the life we want? How do we avoid giving up?

Jen Louden is a national best-selling author of 9 books and the host of Create Out Loud, a podcast for creatives. For almost 30 years, Jen has been a leading voice in the spheres of self-care and creative transformation. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Jen reads two pages from her book Why Bother. [reading begins at 7:47]

Hear us discuss:

“Sometimes, you just have to fight for your life.” [5:48] | “It’s not unique to feel disappointment about our lives.” [10:51] | Leaving the past behind to make room for the future: “Nothing can be new unless it first turns to ashes.” [12:39] Committing to the process: “Letting go of the outcome does not mean giving into resignation.” [16:41]

What does it mean to be a radical? Karl Marx had this to say about it: “To be radical is to go to the root of the matter. For man, however, the root is man himself.” So, radical compassion, empathy, generosity, leadership, humanity - perhaps it’s time to be a radical. 

Pascal Finette is a founder of a boutique advisory firm, Be Radical, and the ‘posse leader’ at The Heretic, one of my favorite–very opinionated–newsletters. He’s worn many hats throughout his lengthy career, and, to this day, continues to be a learner. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Pascal reads two pages from Kraftwerk by Uwe Schütte. [reading begins at 12:30] 

Hear us discuss: 

“You are the people who surround you.” [3:06] | How individuals change: “Make people uncomfortable enough that they feel not only the desire to change, but the necessity. Then–most importantly–give them the tools to do so.” [8:15] | Empowering others to create a preferable future. [15:36] | Navigating the white savior complex: “It comes down to admitting to not knowing.” [22:07]

What’s your relationship with ambition? I feel I’m both ambitious, and not. On one hand, I want to grow into the best of who I am and have a life of contentment, but on the other, there are some status-based trophies that just don’t matter to me as they once did. I’ve come to realize that it’s only by having pursued and–in some cases–won some of those trophies, have I started to appreciate what my bigger, more internally-driven goals might be.

Shellye Archambeau, author of Unapologetically Ambitious, was ranked one of the 100 Most Influential Business Leaders in America, reflecting a 30 year career of leadership roles in various organizations. As such, she has a profound understanding of ambition at the highest echelons of organizational life, and is eager to share what she’s learnt along the way. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/   

Shellye reads two pages from ‘All You Have to Do Is Ask’ by Wayne Baker. [reading begins at 16:20] 

Hear us discuss: 

Working through imposter syndrome: “I don’t know if I ever actually overcame impostor | syndrome, I just learnt how to deal with it.” [3:54] | “It’s really important in life to have cheerleaders around you.” [5:13] | Finding the right people to ask. [21:12] | How to nurture your network: “A network is the people around you who will do something for you when it’s not convenient.” [24:27] | Being ‘Unapologetically Ambitious.’ [27:45] | The price you pay for being ambitious. [34:07]

The book I’m writing at the moment is about relationships. I’m neither a relationship expert nor a psychotherapist, but they do say you should write so that you can teach what you need to know. This means I’ve been reading some of the big names: Esther Perel, John Gottman, and most recently, Terry Real, who has a brand new book out called Us: Getting Past You and Me to Build a More Loving Relationship. A phrase often used as part of this book’s marketing that chimed deeply with me is this: ‘At a time when toxic individualism is rending our society at every level, Us provides the tools to find our way back to each other through authentic connection and fierce intimacy.’ It’s a big question – how much are we our own person, and how deeply must we connect? 

Kevin Ashton’s latest book is called How to Fly a Horse, and, if nothing else, that’s a title that will get you curious. Kevin is also the guy who named the Internet of Things, and he’s been a key player in its evolution. Before any idea becomes a big deal, though, it starts as a crackpot’s mad imaginings. Even though the IoT was an idea that nobody really got, it was one that Kevin couldn’t get rid of, and he had a self-created sense of urgency that said, ‘If I don’t act on this now, I never will.’ Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast 

Kevin reads two pages from ‘Finding the Mother Tree’ by Suzanne Simard. [reading begins at 19:50]

Hear us discuss: 

What it takes to cross the threshold: “Life is too short to get wrapped up in doing things just because you want the glory.” [24:57] | Knowing when it’s time to move on: “Don’t be a cliche.” [27:43] | “It’s okay to move on from one thing before you move on to another.” [34:57] | What we can learn from trees: “Trees are intelligent.” [35:07]

One of my favorite questions is simply this: How can I help? The power of it is two-fold. First, it asks the other person to name the help that’s required – that's powerful for them, as it often isn’t totally clear what that is, even to them. The second power – the more important one, in my opinion – is that it disrupts your own assumption that you already know what they need. But, all of this points to a bigger question: How do you best give more to the world than you take? 

Garrett Bucks is the founder of The Barnraisers Project. It’s just as it sounds: a group of people get together, and collectively build a barn for one of their members. As with all of us, it took Garrett a while to realize what his path should be. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Garrett reads two pages from ‘They Can’t Kill Us Until They Kill Us’ by Hanif Abdurraqib. [reading begins at 22:35] 

Hear us discuss: 

“I spent a whole lot of my career feeling like I had a right to leadership, wherever I went.” [4:00]

Being a neighbour. [10:33] | How to unlearn the heroic, individualistic narrative. [14:32] | Sitting with whiteness and using your privilege: “Whiteness is completely made up.” [30:50] | The importance of lowering your altitude: “If the conversation stops at the big picture, we’re just gonna be stuck in that morass.” [37:38]

I’m just back from an extended visit to Australia, and as a farewell treat I took my family out to a fancy dinner. I’m a vegetarian but I decided to take them to a high-end steakhouse. I chose to go there for two reasons: first, most of them are committed carnivores; and second, I knew most of them hadn’t had the experience of the theater and rituals that come with a classic steakhouse. Not only was the food great, but I also ran a little pub quiz as dinner unfolded, creating a delightful sense of engagement, competition and bonhomie. At the end of the night, I truly felt like I had accomplished my goal – to create a special memory with the people I love. 

Amantha Imber is a speaker, the host of Australia’s #1 business podcast, and a freshly-printed author. The foundation for all of that is actually her training as an organizational psychologist, helping people do better work and feel better at work. As well as speaking, podcasting and writing, Amantha founded a company called Inventium. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Amantha Imber reads two pages from ‘The Power of Moments’ by brothers, Chip and Dan Heath. [reading begins at 19:35] 

Hear us discuss: 

Identifying your core values with clarity. [15:02] | How to permit yourself to experience extraordinary things. [24:05] | The link between Amantha’s book Time Wise, and the commitment to creating magical memories: “The bad news is, time flies. The good news is that you’re the pilot.” [29:15] | “Humans communicate in dyads. We’re designed to communicate one-on-one.” [33:22] | The bagel–croissant approach to networking. [34:03] | Performing periodic ‘life check-ups.’ [35:08]

If you’ve read my new book How to Begin, you'll know that I track my own evolution as I define and commit to a worthy goal. For a while, I’ve been thinking about what success means, and how you would even measure it. In the book, I hone in on one metric, but perhaps I’ve been looking at it all wrong.                                             

Jay Acunzo – like me – is a podcaster, and one I look up to. He challenges the way I think about creating and also about success. His core podcast is called Unthinkable and is billed as ‘The American life for creative work’. For many years, though, he hosted another podcast called 3 Clips where he analyzed three clips from other podcasts, and discussed why they worked. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Jay reads two pages from ‘Kitchen Confidential’ by Anthony Bourdain. [reading begins at 18:48] 

Hear us discuss: 

“We’re so focused on being visible that we’ve forgotten to try and be memorable.” [3:42] | Recognising your own heroic stories. [24:26] | How to identify the bigger picture. [28:00] | “You can imagine better work than you can create.” [33:36] | Being disruptive in a restrictive system. [37:39]

Today, we're pulling one of our best episodes from the vaults, featuring the brilliant Arthur Brooks.

There’s no doubt that I am a purpose-driven person, but I can’t actually pinpoint the origin of this sense of purpose. I’m both an atheist, and an existentialist, so where does this drive of mine come from? Let me ask you - where do you find your sense of purpose? 

Arthur C. Brooks is a thinker and a writer about leadership, and, more broadly, a good life. He holds academic positions at Harvard, he was previously head of a conservative think tank, and he writes a regular article in The Atlantic called ‘How to Build a Life.’ But, those are just his jobs. What’s Arthur C. Brooks Why? Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Arthur reads two pages from book 4 of ‘Meditations’ by Marcus Aurelius. [reading begins at 21:00] 

Hear us discuss: 

Discernment of your purpose. [12:41] | Mastering transgressive acts: “Love your enemies; pray for those who persecute you.” [28:12] | Building I-Thou relationships: “Never use your values as a weapon, only as a gift.” [32:15] | Transitions between different strengths in life. [35:23] | What it takes to become an elder. [38:06]

I honestly did not understand what I was trying to do. And also nobody in law school understood what I was trying to do. What I can see now, with the benefit of hindsight and some self-esteem and some marketing speak, is that I was a boundary rider. I've come to learn that the interesting things often take place on the edges, those intermediate areas where X meets Y and some sort of new life is born. Brian Christian is a boundary rider too. He's just way more successful and interesting than law school Micheal.

He thinks deeply and writes about deep patterns of life through technology and AI and algorithms. He's the author of The Most Human Human, the Alignment Problem, and Algorithms to Live By. After the introduction I just gave you, you're probably going to guess that Brian isn't just a science guy. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Brian reads from Godel, Escher, Bach by Douglas Hofstadter. [Reading begins at 15:10]

Hear us Discuss: 

Metaphor can be one of the main mechanisms by which science happens. [6:20] | Rules that are delightful to break. [24:35] | “I have this deep conviction […] we are on to some philosophical paydirt here. There is a very real way in which we are building [AI] systems in our own image, and as a result they come to be a mirror for ourselves.” [28:40] | What is the heart of the human experience? [38:10] | “Humans are not so special.” [42.50]

A young woman stands, one hand on top of a chair, the other holding a bouquet of leaves. She stares directly into the lens of the camera; it’s not clear what she’s thinking. She’s wearing a long, dark dress with long sleeves and a white collar that covers her neck. It’s old-fashioned, colonial. A simple crucifix hangs from her neck. She’s an indigenous Australian –an aboriginal– and behind her is a lush landscape - it’s actually a tapestry of a landscape, and the picture is blue– the blue you might know if you’ve ever seen crockery with the willow pattern-spode china. This is a piece of art called A gaze still dark (a black portrait of intimacy), and the subject is Danie Mellor’s grandmother.  

Danie Mellor created this piece of art. He’s a brilliant Australian artist whose work provokes questions about the intersection between colonial and contemporary in historic cultures. His work can be found in museums around the world, including The National Gallery of Canada, The British Museum, The National Museum of Scotland, and in Canberra’s own National Gallery of Australia, which is where I saw this painting and thought, ‘I need to speak to this person.’ Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Danie reads from ‘On Photography’ by Susan Sontag. [reading begins at 13:51] 

Hear us discuss: 

The art and evolution of photography: “The photograph is a way of stopping the march of mortality.” [19:26] | Incorporating play into your work. [27:24] | Knowing when to stop what you’re doing, and work on something else: “There’s a degree of innovation in the way that ideas express themselves in material form.” [36:43] | “You have control over the quality of work you offer, but not over how it’s received.” [44:29]

If you had the chance to listen to my recent interview with Zach First, you heard us talk about how in a time of turbulence, organizations - whether big or small - can be candles in the darkness, and how being a manager means being a barrier against tyranny. That’s all good in theory … but how do you start a movement in practice? 

Thibault Manekin is a commercial real estate entrepreneur. He might not seem like my usual guest at first, but Thibault is a real estate guy, with a twist. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Thibault reads two pages from ‘The Alchemist’ by Paulo Coelho. [reading begins at 16:05] 

Hear us discuss: 

“In order to grow an idea we have to understand that it doesn’t belong to us.” [8:01] | “Telling people how to be is a quick fix, but solves nothing long-term. It sticks in your head, but isn’t in your heart.” [13:08] | Chasing your dreams while also going beyond your own desires. [21:48] | Learning to surrender to your heart: “Outside of your comfort zone is the only place where true growth happens.” [26:34] | Using both your head and your heart in the work you do in an organisation. [28:37] | Staying on the path, even in dispiriting times. [35:25]

As a reader and someone who’s been immersed in business for 30 years, I have glanced sideways at the way institutions have become such a central part of our world. Within all of these institutions, you have individuals just trying to do their best, and do work that matters. I’ve seen and felt the paradox of how institutions are totally shaped by the people within them, and yet, are also a completely separate entity. So what does it mean to be part of an organization - specifically, to be a manager? 

Peter Drucker is the name most synonymous with asking this question throughout his lifetime; I do wonder how he would answer it now, in these turbulent times. 

Zach First is the Executive Director of the Drucker Institute, an institution founded to carry on Drucker’s work, and to help people manage with courage. Prior to joining the Institute, Zach was the type to, ‘dutifully follow the standards of the institution to which he belonged,’ but then at a certain point, things changed, and he stopped being a follower. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Zach reads from ‘Management’ by Peter Drucker. [reading begins at 13:50] 

Hear us discuss: 

“Organizations are just as mysterious and complicated as the people who populate them.” [6:14] | The fight against tyranny: “The most important thing we can do is hold our institutions to the standards that we need.” [22:01] | “Management is a noble task, and one of the most important in the modern economy.” [26:13] | Making the right decisions for your institution. [26:36] | How to remain courageous. [30:40]

‘When a man turns 30, he realizes that his life isn’t working.’ 

I heard this quote when I was in my thirties, and it spoke loudly to the crossroads that often occur at this moment of mid-life. When you hit your fifties, I think the question reappears - you’ve climbed your mountain, now who do you choose to be beyond that? As I’ve pondered this, I’ve been sitting with the idea of stepping into elderhood; the mentor role. Do you have an elder in your life, or are you perhaps being called, like me, to become one? 

Stephen Jenkinson is someone I’ve looked up to as an elder, and he’s engaged rudely and briskly, with both life and death, having spent his time counseling dying people and their families. He’s a sculptor, a musician, a canoe builder, a sage, and the award-winning author of a favorite book of mine, Die Wise. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Stephen Jenkinson reads Seamus Heaney’s poem, ‘From the Republic of Conscience.’ [reading begins at 15:40] 

Hear us discuss: 

“You have to acknowledge many things about your own life that you’re less than thrilled about or proud of.” [19:35] | The nature of written law: “Lawfulness, in my mind, is principally predicated on obedience, not discernment.” [22:26] | The difference between grief and grievance: “One of the ways by which you know you are deeply and irreconcilably alive is having a capacity for grief - not to endure it, but to practise it.” [27:21] | How to identify your burden. [33:02] | Deciding when to say ‘yes.’ [37:39]

If you’re a listener of this podcast, I believe that you love reading. My question is, do you remember where and when that seed got planted? I do, and that’s what I’m here to celebrate in today’s special 100th episode. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Michael reads two pages from ‘The Fellowship of the Ring’ by J. R. R. Tolkien. [reading begins at 7:30] 

Hear him discuss: 

His relationship with reading, growing up. [1:13] | “This book gave me permission to imagine.” [14:50] | How reading helps you become a better writer: “The way to become a good writer is to be a bad writer.” [16:12]

‘Traveller, there is no path. The path is made by walking.’ 

This is a quote from a poem by early 20th century Spanish poet, Antonio Machado. Though I’ve known about it for 20 years, I’ve only just given it any real thought, and I think it’s slightly subversive - disconcerting, even. Here’s what I now see in the depth of those lines: what seems obvious is not as certain as it appears, what seems built is not as solid as it appears, and what you long for is not yet built - it’s in doing the work that the world we want is created. 

Mia Birdsong is someone who’s making the path by walking. She’s the author of How We Show Up: Reclaiming Family, Friendship, and Community, and she describes herself as a pathfinder and a facilitator on the road to social justice. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Mia reads two pages from ‘Braiding Sweetgrass’ by Robin Wall Kimmerer. [reading begins at 19:35] 

Hear us discuss: 

Connecting to your longing: “Create enough presence to notice yourself.” [12:13] | Our responsibility to our gifts. [24:49] | Clearing away old stories of yourself. [31:23] | Creating and telling a new story: “Absolutely, we are meant to survive.” [33:54]

Picture this: King Arthur, the round table, and three knights. These knights are not the ones you’ve likely heard of; they are Sir Michael, Sir Nigel and Sir Angus - my two brothers and me. The knights ride out and encounter challenges, perils, and traps, but, with daring do and some clever thinking, they sidestep the danger. Finally, they face the dragon, and a battle of wills ensues - the three knights triumph. And now, bedtime. My dad was a great storyteller, and this was the template of a classic story he told. I love stories, I love words, and I love language. 

Chris West is the author of Strong Language, and he learned his craft as a copywriter in the advertising business. Now, he helps company leaders elevate and animate the strategic vision of their business with powerful language. Like me, Chris knows there’s something magical in language and storytelling. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Chris reads two pages from ‘Where the Wild Things Are’ by Maurice Sendak. [reading begins at 18:40] 

Hear us discuss: 

What makes a good story? [5:04] | “We’re authors of a lot more than we think is possible.” [8:44] | “The biggest world is inside of our heads.” [22:07] | Maintaining the imaginative spirit as you age. [22:47] | How to embrace difference. [25:52] | The connection between language and strategy: “Language is a way into our deepest beliefs.” [27:56]

Today, we're pulling one of our best episodes from the vaults, featuring the brilliant Christa Couture.

We all have labels - some are given to us, and some, we give ourselves. Christa Couture says that how you word those labels can make all a difference. Christa is a brilliant woman with many labels: she’s queer, indigenous, disabled, a writer, a musician, a broadcaster, and a mother. In today’s show, she reveals how these labels do and do not define her and the pressures that come with them. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Christa reads from ‘Brilliant Imperfection: Grappling with Cure’ by Eli Clare. [reading begins at 16:30] 

Hear us talk about: 

Acceptance and empowerment: “My body is good enough.” [23:04] | “I am not the broken one here; it’s the ideas that are broken.” [25:55] | Moving beyond shame. [29:27]

What’s the language you go to when you think of resilience? Common answers include, ‘bouncing back,’ ‘bouncing forward,’ ‘what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger,’ or ‘a regathering of yourself.’ I truly believe that the words and metaphors we choose to use around resilience actually influence how accessible that resilience is, to us. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dr. Robyne Hanley-Dafoe has spent two decades researching, teaching, and advocating for simple and powerful language around resilience, and the way she puts it is beautiful; resilience is being okay. 

Robyne reads two pages from ‘Man’s Search for Meaning,’ by Viktor Frankl. [reading begins at 20:35] 

Hear us discuss: 

“The weight of the world becomes heavy to carry with two hands.” [4:02] | Describing resilience: “Resiliency is a verb.” [6:44] | Unlearning what’s ‘normal.’ [24:49] | What to unlearn about resilience: “Stoicism is not resiliency.” [27:36] | Getting better at falling apart: “Mistakes are not characteristics.” [29:57]

Of the little reality surrounding us that our brain takes in, we can control almost none, and influence only an iota. At the same time, there’s a difference between actively engaging in our own lives, and when we’re opting out. In a strange way, I find the paradox liberating; I can control nothing, and I’m an active participant in my own life. The question is, how do we navigate that tension? 

Steve Morrow is a friend of mine, and his role at Salesforce is focused on coaching and effective leadership. However, he didn’t start off in the human development world - in fact, he began in sales and marketing, and soon enough, began looking inside, rather than outside, at potential clients. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Steve reads two pages from ‘Conscious Business’ by Fred Kofman. [reading begins at 8:15] 

Hear us discuss: 

“One of life’s great challenges is living up to ourselves.” [10:31] | Having a healthy relationship with fear: “Leadership is countercultural.” [12:11] | Navigating the tension between corporate and individual values. [23:33] | Leaving behind old beliefs: “Your high standards should serve you, not rule you.” [26:35] 

A famous quote by Albert Schweitzer talks about how small and obscure deeds are far more powerful than public acts that receive acclaim. It goes: ‘[The public acts] were like the foam on the waves of the deep ocean.’ Applying this metaphor to the world of leadership, what’s just foam on the waves, and what’s the sinuous currents of the deep ocean? 

A great podcast that I often listen to - and one that I have been a guest on four times - is Coaching for Leaders, hosted by Dave Stachowiak. This podcast is the portal for his Coaching for Leaders Academy, which helps managers and executives develop leadership excellence. Dave is someone who, I think, is a masterful surfer: he knows the foam and the waves, but he also knows the deep ocean. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dave reads two pages from ‘How to Win Friends and Influence People’ by Dale Carnegie. [reading begins at 20:55] 

Hear us discuss: 

“Talk to the people listening.” [11:21] | ‘We all think we’re more polarised than we actually are.’ [26:29] | Staying present to discomfort. [30:24] | The structure of the Coaching for Leaders Academy: “We learn best when we’re struggling with something.” [37:50] | Finding struggle to keep learning: “Seeing your mistakes is one of the most important parts of the learning process.” [40:13]

If you were to summarize my corporate career, the core theme would be: discovering the ways I didn’t really fit. I didn’t become an entrepreneur for all of the conventional reasons, I had simply realized that I just wasn’t that good at having a boss. This poses the question: is there a way to be a rebel and stiff flourish within a system? Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Gina Jeneroux is the Chief Learning Officer at the Bank of Montreal, and she’s on a mission to change how her colleagues - and eventually, the world - learn and prepare for the future. 

Gina reads two pages from ‘Switch’ by Chip Heath and Dan Heath. [reading begins at 12:10] 

Hear us discuss: 

“It’s not just about being different for different sake, but rather about driving a different kind of impact.” [4:02] | How to prepare for failure. [17:49] | Breaking away from formal learning. [21:27] | Different areas of skills: “The problems we need to solve in the coming years are different from the ones we’ve seen before.” [25:02] | Navigating a world full of ambiguity. [29:38] |“Our biggest limiter is ourselves.” [34:41]

You might know this fable: Inside us, two wolves, fighting; two conflicting desires. Which one wins? The one you feed. I’m curious to know if you’re attuned to your two wolves right now. Who, or what, is the battle between? Obedience or rebellion, self-care or service, courage or safety, conflict or comfort? I’m Michael Bungay Stanier, and those are my wolves. 

Eric Zimmer hosts a wonderful podcast - one that I’ve had the pleasure of being on, twice, - called The One You Feed, where he brings a stillness and a wise curiosity to work and stories that are often rooted in this sort of inner conflict. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Eric reads two pages from ‘The Heart of Understanding’ by Thich Nhat Hanh. [reading begins at 17:30] 

Hear us discuss: 

“Emptiness is better described as everything all at once.” [22:39] | The understanding of ‘non-self’: “The more I see it, the less afraid I am.” [23:32] | “Sometimes mood drives action, but action can often drive mood.” [26:30] | How to dance with ambition. [27:37] | Drawing wisdom and support from external sources. [35:10]

Christine Porath is a professor at Georgetown University McDonough School of Business. Previously, she wrote a book called Mastering Civility, and her new book is Mastering Community. She has written for Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, Wall Street Journal, and more; but if she had her way when she was young, she would have been a sports star. The reason for her shift in career might surprise you. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Christine reads two pages from ‘Man’s Search For Meaning’ by Viktor Frankl. [reading begins at 16:10]

Hear us discuss: 

How to be a force for good. [23:50] | What it takes to master community: “We’re very quick to point the finger at others.” [31:22] | Developing a good sense of self-awareness: “Sitting down and asking people what you need to work on is helpful.” [34:17] | “Do your best to be the example of change that you want to see.” [38:17]

With so much of the world struggling, it’s deeply tempting to throw up my hands and say, ‘It’s too hard! If someone else could sort this out for me, that would be great.’ Just the other day, I heard on the radio that it is the deepest form of privilege to say, ‘This is not my problem.’ But what can one person do to change the world? How do we find the courage to do something?

Todd Kashdan’s books have always intrigued me; they intertwine academic rigor with human insight. His latest is called The Art of Insubordination. To me insubordination brings to mind rule-breakers or rebels. Todd doesn’t see it as simplistically as that; to him, there’s a proper, principled way to be insubordinate. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Todd reads two pages from ‘The Presentation of Self in Everyday Life’ by Erving Goffman. [reading begins at 19:13]

Hear us discuss: 

Principled versus unprincipled insubordination. [8:18] | The different forms of self-presentation. [23:55] | When does efficiency take primacy over authenticity? [27:31] | Avoiding psychological exhaustion. [30:30] | Understanding your ‘dark side’: “It’s perfectly fine to experience anger and righteous indignation when we are concerned that perceived flaws in our character are the reason we’re being judged and rejected.” [33:25] | How to be a good audience member. [36:44] | Having the courage to do something: “In the long term, the suffering that accompanies the regret of inaction is so much greater than short-term moments of embarrassment and rejection.” [39:38] | “The singular acts of singular people are the cornerstones of creating large bands of people that stand up against tyranny and oppression.” [43:46]

I’ve resisted therapy for almost all of my 54 years. What changed my mind was reading a book called Mindsight by Dan Siegel, which made me realize that therapy could not only be about fixing what’s broken, but also, around integration - who I am, and who I want to be.

Naomi Shragai is a psychotherapist who’s been practicing for over 30 years. She is also a freelance journalist for The Financial Times, and author of The Man Who Mistook His Job for His Life, a book whose genesis is present in the work that she does. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Naomi reads two pages from ‘See Under: Love’ by David Grossman. [reading begins at 17:37]

Hear us discuss: 

Navigating a relationship with a traumatized or struggling partner. [25:21] | What to do when you don’t have a clue. [26:23] | Can you be human at work?: “Work needs to acknowledge that everyone’s coming in and bringing their messy lives into the workplace; people aren’t leaving them at home.” [28:28] | “Bad things happen, we can’t deny them.” [32:14] | How leaders can make work more human. [32:18] | A conversation with an overachiever. [34:06]

There’s no doubt that I am a purpose-driven person, but I can’t actually pinpoint the origin of this sense of purpose. I’m both an atheist, and an existentialist, so where does this drive of mine come from? Let me ask you - where do you find your sense of purpose? 

Arthur C. Brooks is a thinker and a writer about leadership, and, more broadly, a good life. He holds academic positions at Harvard, he was previously head of a conservative think tank, and he writes a regular article in The Atlantic called ‘How to Build a Life.’ But, those are just his jobs. What’s Arthur C. Brooks Why? Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Arthur reads two pages from book 4 of ‘Meditations’ by Marcus Aurelius. [reading begins at 21:00] 

Hear us discuss: 

Discernment of your purpose. [12:41] | Mastering transgressive acts: “Love your enemies; pray for those who persecute you.” [28:12] | Building I-Thou relationships: “Never use your values as a weapon, only as a gift.” [32:15] | Transitions between different strengths in life. [35:23] | What it takes to become an elder. [38:06]

What’s your relationship with ambition? What parts of you do you want to grow? What does success look like for you, and how has that evolved over the years? What’s your relationship with perfectionism? 

Kate Berardo is the Vice President of Leadership Development at Meta, the company formerly known as Facebook. She likes to call herself a lifelong learner, rejecting poisonous perfectionism and keeping curiosity alive. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Kate reads two pages from ‘Bird by Bird’ by Anne Lamott. [reading begins at 8:30] 

Hear us discuss: 

“To be interesting, be interested.” [2:10] | Being kinder to yourself: “It’s inviting to have a little bit of messiness.” [13:23] | Staying curious on a large scale. [17:29] | Finding your next evolution. [20:09]

Michael’s new book How to Begin: Start Doing Something that Matters is now available at www.HowToBegin.com.

Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

One of my favourite words is penumbra. Its etymology is the combination of the Latin words for almost, and shadow. The word means ‘the edge of the shadow’: not quite light, not quite dark. Another favourite word is liminal - on the threshold. Some of my favourite people are those who seek out those spaces of ambiguity, uncertainty, and fluidity - people willing to dissolve the sense of who they are, currently, so they can see what emerges next. 

I met Steven D’Souza at the ‘House of Beautiful Business’ conference in Lisbon, and immediately, I wanted to be his friend. He’s trained as a priest, written a trilogy of wonderful books, been the vice president for an investment bank, and the head of Learning and Development for a Fortune 500 company. When you try to piece together this career progression … it seems to make Steven more of an enigma, rather than less. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Steven reads two pages from ‘The Self Delusion’ by Tom Oliver. [reading begins at 15:20] 

Hear us discuss: 

Being freed from excessive individualism. [19:13] Rejecting the individualistic approach: “It’s not either/or, it’s both/and.” [21:29] Growth as a ‘teacher.’ [25:27] Deciding who to serve: “Let your life speak.” [29:20]

If you can imagine a painter, musician or dancer, then you can probably bring to mind where they do their work. A place to explore, create and make ...but how is that relevant to those of us in the world of organizations and corporations? Today’s guest, Jennifer Paylor, calls herself an artist and it’s not only because she sings and writes. She is an engineer and the current Head of Learning & Development, Talent and Culture at Capgemini in North America. She believes that the work she does here is considered art, because she utilises her skills to create a harmonious environment, blurring the lines between Art and Science. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Jennifer reads from ‘Leadership and Self-Deception’ by The Arbinger Institute. [Reading begins at 10:29] 

You’ll also hear us talk about: 

Being ‘in the box.’ [14:04] | Staying present to humanity in difficult conversations. [20:24] | “People talk in symptoms. There is a need somewhere, even if they don’t articulate it.” [21:21] | Culture hacking. [21:55] | Building influence in new organisations. [24:39] | Intellectual humility. [26:36] | “Trust is the key to human growth.” [30:58]

The pandemic has brought about an epidemic of loneliness. Human connection expert, Riaz Meghji is here to talk about fixing it. Riaz has 17 years of experience in broadcast television, covering current affairs, sports, entertainment, politics and business. In this episode, he shares insights he acquired along the way about retaining humility in an industry where big egos easily develop, and the importance of candid conversation. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Riaz reads from the book ‘Everyone Communicates, Few Connect’ by John C. Maxwell, explaining that he has always been fascinated by the art of how and why we connect. [reading begins at 5:45] 

Furthermore, you’ll hear MBS and Riaz discuss: 

The book’s impact on Riaz [9:55] | Arrogance as an interviewer [11:24] | Establishing connection and trust [14:02] | Perfecting one’s craft while remaining humble [19:04] | Navigating and evoking emotion [26:05]  

During the first phase of the pandemic I experimented with a type of online gathering, which I called Cocktails and Questions. After getting myself a cocktail, five people in my circle would gather, and we all had six minutes to reflect on a question I had sent them the day before; they would talk without interruption. The question I had sent was designed to provoke reflection, vulnerability, and insight. One of my favourite questions was this: What are you holding on to, and why? Woven into that question is the insight that once we’ve taken hold of something, we become committed to it, often to an extent that’s irrational, and one that no longer serves us. This applies to companies we love as well: it’s hard to let go of the brands we’re committed to.

Sandra Sucher is the Professor of Management Practice at Harvard Business School, and author of a new book: The Power of Trust: How Companies Build It, Lose It, Regain It. Smart companies use the power of trust to keep their customers committed to them. How? Here’s a hint: moral reasoning. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Sandra reads two pages from ‘The Making of the Atomic Bomb’ by Richard Rhodes. [reading begins at 14:05] 

Hear us discuss:

What it takes to nurture moral courage. [21:54] | Navigating different morality: “Assume good intent.” [27:03] | Refining your understanding of moral leadership. [28:42] | Being a moral leader in a flawed system: “It’s always possible to be a moral leader.” [35:29] | Welcoming moral leadership in an organisation. [36:52]

Have you ever wondered what it’s like to be the CEO of a massive company? What do you do? What do you worry about? Michael Bungay Stanier is joined by his friend Dig Howitt, CEO and President of Cochlear, a medical device company that helps people hear and be heard. They have a conversation about modern business and what makes a company successful. Dig shares the responsibilities and difficulties that accompany his position as a high-ranking officer, and offers advice that he utilises to ensure he continues to grow and learn as a leader. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Dig selected the book ‘In Search of Excellence’ by Tom J. Peters and Robert H. Waterman Jr. [reading begins at 4:25] 

MBS and Dig Howitt discuss: 

The book’s impact on Dig [8:27] | Leadership versus management [10:48] | The relationship between strategy and culture [12:15] | Being a follower and a leader [14:10] | Improving failure capacity within a company [17:30] | Building a strong leadership team [21:00] | Diverse views within a team [23:15]

It’s launch week for How to Begin. I’ve had a love-hate relationship with this book - mostly love - for about a year and a half, so it’s pretty exciting to finally stumble into the sunlight, blinking and going, “It’s arrived! It’s here!” And that’s why today’s guest is so perfect; Jesse Finkelstein is the co-founder of Page Two, the company who published and partnered with me for this book, and The Coaching Habit and The Advice Trap, as well. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Michael reads two pages from his upcoming book, ‘How To Begin.’ [reading begins at 8:15]

Hear us discuss: 

‘Unicorn business partners’: “If you can find a wonderful partner, it’s everything, but can also be the worst thing.” [3:45] | “I found it very freeing once I gave myself permission to not only hold onto the people who would support me on the journey, but to abandon the people and structures that would weigh me down.” [12:36] | Finding the courage to say ‘no’ and dealing with the aftermath: “It’s often to everyone’s benefit if you’re able to look honestly at a relationship or structure, and let it go.” [13:18] 

Today is January 11th, 2022 - it is the day my new book, How to Begin: Start Doing Something That Matters, actually arrives in the world. This is probably no surprise to you, because I have been mentioning it on the podcast; so, today, I thought I’d bring you a short, but hard-hitting, interview with the author. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Welcome to 2 Pages with MBS! This is the podcast where Michael interviews Michael, about Michael’s book. You’ll hear him talk about:

Trialing the epiphany, “Hey, I might be a writer.” [1:34] | Why write about goals? [3:37] | The ambition for this book. [6:03]

On a scale of 1-10, how good of a person are you? Yeah, tricky question. And even trickier: Is the person you think you are the same as the person who actually shows up, day-to-day, in life? Dolly Chugh, as well as being one of my favourite people, is a professor of social psychology at the NYU Stern School of Business, and author of The Person You Mean to Be: How Good People Fight Bias. Dolly has made it her goal to speak to those of us who label ourselves as good people but may not realise how our unconscious biases affect the way we function. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/  

Dolly reads from A More Beautiful and Terrible History: The Uses and Misuses of Civil Rights History by Jeanne Theoharis. [reading begins at 12:13]

Hear us discuss: 

Addressing systemic bias: “Unlearning what we know and learning what’s correct makes it easier to see the systems around us.” [21:50] | Learning to unlearn: the ‘paradox mindset.’ [25:09] | Counteracting simple narratives: “You don’t have to believe only one thing.” [28:17]

I was in a mastermind group for about 15 years - we were a gathering of people who had something in common, but there was also a lot we didn’t have in common. An enduring friendship from that time is the one I have with Eric Klein, someone who is very precious to me, someone I love having in my life, and someone who’s just a mensch. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Michael reads two pages from his upcoming book, ‘How To Begin.’ [reading begins at 6:35]

Hear us discuss: 

“There is an individual greatness that you are here to incarnate, express, and live out.” [11:23] | Owning your qualities. [11:58] | The shadowy side of qualities: “The quality will not care how it comes about, it’s gonna follow the architecture of your psyche into the world.” [14:36]

The belief that we have free will and that we are in charge of what goes on around us is mostly an illusion. Our decisions are rarely our own. For good or ill, most times we are nudged into ways of behaving. Author and Professor of Behavioural Science, Katy Milkman, joins me to talk about the science of getting where you want to be and how to use the insight that we are predictably imperfect to make better decisions. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Katy reads from ‘Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness’ by Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler. [reading begins at 09:14]

Hear us talk about:

Myths about behaviour change: 'There is no "one size fits all" approach to changing behaviour.' [4:27] | How to ethically think about being a 'choice architect.' [16:25] | The nuances of paternalism. [20:11] | How to inoculate yourself against manipulation that is not in your best interest: 'Knowledge and context should shape all decisions.' [22:23] | Insights around behaviour change and how it works: 'Rigidity in expectations will be our downfall.' [27:00] | How Katy's thinking on behaviour change has evolved over the years. [32:45]

This won’t, unfortunately, be news to you: Each year, we consume the resources of 1.6 planet earths. We’re diminishing the environment, exhausting biological capital … and heading towards, well, who really knows... Is there hope? Yes. Is it up to you? Yes, at least partially. And where do we begin? By understanding what it takes to be a good ancestor. Practical philosopher, Roman Krznaric, joins Michael Bungay Stanier for a conversation about preserving our planet by adopting a long-term way of thinking that will not only benefit us but succeeding generations as well. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Roman reads pages from John McPhee’s book ‘Basin and Range.’ [reading begins at 7:25]        

Hear Michael and Roman talk about: 

Channeling your anger into constructive action. [12:31] | Being a ‘good ancestor.’ [15:06] | “We can change our habits,” Roman says. [22:13] | “Nothing in nature grows forever.” [25:30] | Activists’ responses to Roman’s book and the concept of long-term thinking. [26:52] | “Take care of the place that will take care of our offspring.” [31:03]

Michael reads two pages from his upcoming book, ‘How To Begin.’ [reading begins at 4:30]

Hear us discuss: 

Mitigating risk: “Data is so grounding.” [8:18] | Learning to trust yourself. [12:10] | “When you commit to that process and loosen your grip on the outcome you’re hoping for, you’re more likely to get where you’re supposed to be.” [14:47] | The Conspiracy - MBS.works [15:04]

We are all investors. Whether it concerns our time, our focus or our money, we choose where we want to put it. When you invest, the first question always asked is ‘What is the rate of return?’ What if the question was ‘What does the most good?’ In this episode, Swati Mylavarapu introduces us to her values-based venture capital fund and discusses the significance of humanising the workplace beyond an aim for profit and technological advancement. Swati is co-founder of Incite.org, a brilliant strategist and a forceful good in the world. 

Swati reads two pages from ‘Ghost Work: How to Stop Silicon Valley from Building a New Global Underclass’ by Mary L. Gray and Siddharth Suri. [reading begins at 16:20]

Hear us talk about:

What ‘world-positive’ means from an investment standpoint: ‘Being an investor requires being a concerned and active citizen.’ [2:30] | What Swati offers as a non-traditional venture capitalist. [7:11] | Building and shaping new technology ventures. [22:01] | What influences investment decisions? [24:23] | The value-based diligence process when picking companies to invest in. [25:28] | The modern meaning of ‘work.’ [29:25]

Michael reads two pages from his upcoming book, ‘How To Begin.’ [reading begins at 7:50]

Hear us discuss: 

The intimidation of making a big leap. [12:29] | “It’s harder to read the label from inside the jar.” [14:39] | A lucky amateur?: “It takes ten years to become an overnight success.” [17:26] | “Plans are useless, but planning is useful.” [19:07] | The pursuit of ‘you 2.0’ [21:34]

When I was in Lisbon recently, I had one of those lovely moments of meeting a kindred spirit. It’s not the same as meeting someone who’s interesting or lovely, instead, there’s a recognition of ‘you and I, we are similarly weird and interesting.’ I gave Steven D’Souza my book, and he gave me his new book, Not Being. It’s a great book that tries to navigate similar big questions that I mull over. In one section, he wrote: “Now I find more truth in poetry than in prose; in nature than in classrooms. I’ve come to the point where I’m tired of the narrative of development, and exhausted by the imperative for self-improvement. I’m ending the search. I want to enjoy life on the other side of these personal development projects.” 

You don’t typically hear the first question I ask my guests; Who are you, what’s your story? Sometimes people plunge into that with gusto, sometimes there’s a bit of a nervous laugh - but Peter Bregman sat with this question longer than most of us, and revealed that he’s more than his résumé of being a coach, teacher, and author. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Peter reads two poems; ‘The Invitation’ by Oriah Mountain Dreamer [reading begins at 11:40], and ‘The Guest House’ by Rumi. [reading begins at 14:40]

Hear us discuss: 

“I live my life in relation to emotion.” [16:51] | Continuing to be ambitious after achievements. [18:22] | You Can Change Other People: “We all are learning how to be honest without learning how to be helpful.” [20:46] | Acknowledging and responding to struggle: “If you can’t empathise, you will never be an ally.” [23:55] 

Michael reads two pages from his upcoming book, ‘How To Begin.’ [reading begins at 3:30]

Hear us discuss: 

What it takes to be your best self: “It’s a strikingly simple, but powerful concept. There’s no right or wrong way.” [7:31] | Returning to your best self. [8:51] | Connecting to joy: “At the end of each month, I do a lot of reflection on how I felt, what I learnt, and my final perspective.” [11:53]

We’ve probably all had the experience of someone else resisting one of our brilliant ideas. Do you remember how that feels - not being seen or heard? You know what’s almost as irritating, perhaps even more so? When you’re the person resisting your own good idea; you team up with the status quo to back away from this opportunity to unlock your greatness. 

Loran Nordgren is a teacher at the Kellogg School of Management, and the co-author of the book The Human Element: Overcoming the Resistance That Awaits New Ideas, because there are endless reasons why new ideas are not immediately embraced. As a co-author, he joins me in this episode to share how he turned the medium into the message. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Loran reads the poem ‘My Grandmother’s Love Letters’ by Hart Crane. [reading begins at 10:30]

Hear us discuss: 

“There is deep, incredible promise in collaboration.” [2:46] | “I often feel that we are strangers to almost all generations and things past.” [13:05] | The evolution of connecting with people as you age. [14:15] | Having a healthy relationship with the status quo: “People need time to acclimate to new ideas.” [16:56] | Managing anxiety as a creator. [29:00]

Michael reads two pages from his upcoming book, ‘How To Begin.’ [reading begins at 4:15]

Hear us discuss: 

The complexity of prizes and punishments: “If you’re getting into a relationship of any worth, you’ve got to expect ups and downs.” [7:41] | Applying the ‘prize and punishment’ way of thinking to everyday life. [11:15] | Scenario planning: The infatuation stage. [12:07]

‘We shape our buildings; thereafter they shape us,’ is a quote I often come back to. It reminds me that we’re creatures of the systems in which we exist. We are defined by our relationships, both inside and outside of work. The question I sit with is: What’s needed to find, carve out, and fight for freedom, justice, and dignity - not just for you, but more provocatively, for others? What do you do, when you uncover and decide to own your biases and prejudices? 

If you’ve ever worked in an organisation and thought that you could probably do a better job of getting or giving feedback, you may have heard of my guest: Kim Scott, author of Radical Candor, and a wonderful new book called Just Work. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Kim reads two pages from ‘Man’s Search For Meaning’ by Viktor Frankl. [reading begins at 10:50]

Hear us discuss: 

The perpetrator versus victim perspective. [17:49] | Is freedom a double-edged sword? [20:06] | Owning and moving beyond victimhood. [22:50] | The public response to Just Work: “Bias is not meaning it, prejudice is meaning it, and bullying is being mean.” [24:06] | The proper response to having your bias interrupted: “You can’t do right if you don’t know what you’re doing wrong.” [27:25] | How effective is ‘cancel culture’?: “We are pattern makers, and we can change the pattern.” [29:13]

Michael Bachelard is now an award-winning author and journalist. He’s a deputy editor and investigations editor at The Age in Australia - one of the country’s top 3 newspapers. Michael, like me, has come a long way, but, for him, that was always the plan. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Michael reads two pages from ‘Bliss’ by Peter Carey. [reading begins at 12:55] 

Hear us discuss: 

Being intrigued by the world: “If you’re not angry, you’re not looking, and if you’re not righteous, you’re not hoping to do something about it.” [21:09] | How to keep an open heart. [22:58] | Assembling the puzzle: an editor’s job. [29:13] | Staying on course: “Tell people what they need to know in the most compelling and transparent way you can.” [31:30]

I could have used Susan Weinschenk’s help back then because she is an expert in human behaviour and what makes us tick. She’s got a PhD in Psychology, has a number of books under her belt, including 100 Things Every Designer Needs to Know About People, and is the Chief Behavioral Scientist and CEO at The Team W. Susan calls herself a ‘science nerd,’ and she’s been like this since way back when. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Susan reads two pages from ‘Beyond Happiness’ by Ezra Bayda. [reading begins at 15:55] 

Hear us discuss: 

“You’ve got to own this story.” [9:10] | The idea of happiness. [20:04] | Understanding reality. [24:29] | Our cognitive biases. [27:51] | How to make better decisions: “Let your unconscious do its thing.” [30:55]

After some time in academia, John Kay realised that he possessed a unique skill, one that was uncommon in the typical economist. John has already appeared on this podcast, featured as an author in someone else’s read. He’s a British economist, and truthfully, a philosopher. He is what a real influencer looks and sounds like. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

John reads two pages from ‘The Secret of Our Success’ by Joseph Henrich. [reading begins at 11:15] 

Hear us discuss: 

The significance of social learning in the world: “You’ll never see two chimpanzees carrying a log together.” [16:52] | The process of shifting foundational beliefs: “It’s not that they’re worse people, it’s that the environment in which they operate has been a different one.” [18:12] | Finding inspiration and hope. [22:47] | Reducing polarisation. [24:39]

DeNora Getachew is the CEO of DoSomething.org, an organisation that helps youth engage for social impact, to make today and tomorrow better places. But the foundation for DeNora’s work doesn’t begin with youth, it’s more fundamental than that - it’s about democracy. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

DeNora reads two pages from ‘Caste’ by Isabel Wilkerson. [reading begins at 14:10] 

Hear us discuss: 

Navigating inside and outside power. [23:13] | The tokenization of youth activism: “Activate young people to understand that democracy is for them, and that even if they distrust the system, they must learn how to leverage the system to get the change they seek.” [26:40] | What to stop doing. [30:21] | “Young people are unapologetic about being the beneficiaries of the change they seek in their lifetime.” [32:04] | A role model for activism. [32:35]

Sarah Stein Greenberg is the Executive Director of d.school in Stanford, and the author of a wonderful new book: Creative Acts for Curious People. Her job, though, really is a paradox; to both unleash and contain creativity. But maybe that’s the nature of design, because in some ways, design is how creativity learns how to dance. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Sarah reads two pages from ‘The Sixth Extinction’ by Elizabeth Kolbert. [reading begins at 18:35]

Hear us discuss: 

Resisting closure; sustaining a long hunch: “The ability to resist premature closure is one of the core skills you acquire with strong creative practice.” [26:09] | Productive struggle and uncertainty: “If you’re not having those moments of struggle, then you’re probably not working on something that is likely to result in something new, innovative, or meaningful.” [29:05] | Sitting with your feelings. [34:18]

Tope Folarin is a far better navigator than I am. He’s a man who has crossed boundaries and transcends worlds; a creator and an author who has won numerous prizes for his short stories. Not only that, he’s also a leader in the world of social policy, being the Executive Director of the Institute for Policy Studies. These are different worlds, but Tope has found a way to contain multitudes. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Tope reads two pages from ‘The Half-Finished Heaven’ by Tomas Tranströmer. [reading begins at 13:40]

Hear us discuss: 

“I am the place where creation is working on itself.” [15:17] | Surviving the pace and ambition of the material world: How to sit and wait. [18:51] |Finding the time to nurture creativity. [22:56] | How literature influences leadership: “I have walked in so many shoes, thought so many thoughts that don’t originate from my head, and when I’m sitting in front of people trying to articulate a new perspective, I can draw on these great ideas, thoughts, and emotions that I’ve gleaned from years and years of reading literature.” [24:20]

Seth Levine is a Silicon Valley venture capitalist, right at the heart of being and thinking about entrepreneurship. I think you’ll find Seth to be a little different from your typical Silicon Valley tech guru. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Seth reads two pages from ‘Technological Revolutions and Financial Capital’ by Carlota Perez. [reading begins at 16:08]

Hear us discuss: 

“There are lots of people who have great business ideas, but don’t have the capital to start their businesses.” [25:00] | What makes a new founder? [26:00] | Finding the balance between purpose and profit. [28:52] | Misconceptions of entrepreneurship. [33:31] | Being a good ally: “A lot of people in power don’t think about their ability to affect other people by extending their network.” [36:33]

I met Juliet Funt when she was speaking at a conference, and being a decent speaker and presenter myself, I’m always delighted when someone puts on a brilliant performance. Juliet put on that performance, and turns out she’s just as fun and smart off the stage, as she is on it. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Juliet reads two pages from ‘When Things Fall Apart’ by Pema Chödrön. [reading begins at 13:40]

Hear us discuss: 

Softening and managing busyness: “We have been using busyness to numb and avoid softness.” [16:39] | The anxiety of getting unbusy: “Give yourself a structure, but write it in pencil.” [20:57] | Finding the work that matters: The thief of activity. [24:04]

David Gardner is the co-founder of The Motley Fool, the organisation that prides itself on the practice of conscious capitalism, a concept that seeks to elevate humanity through business. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

David reads two pages from ‘The Pickwick Papers’ by Charles Dickens. [reading begins at 13:45] 

Hear us discuss: 

Bringing people together: “State what you stand for, live it, and fight against the things that undermine it.” [21:36] | Counteracting whitewashing. [26:24] | Balancing individual values and playing the bigger game: “The only ethical framework that makes sense is when everybody wins, not win-lose, or lose-win.” [29:12]

Pamela Slim is a coach and fellow author; her newest book is The Widest Net, and I think it’s her best yet. However, I think her real genius lies in community-building. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Pamela reads two pages from ‘Bird by Bird’ by Anne Lamott. [reading begins at 12:25]

Hear us discuss: 

Connecting to the wonder of the world. [15:18] | A writer’s sense of self and craft: “Call the book in.” [17:47] | The Widest Net. [24:25] | Decentering as a privileged person: “The work itself is the thing that guides you. If it’s your own ego, then we’ll all get lost.” [27:38]

Azeem Azhar is a speaker, an entrepreneur, a podcaster, and the author of the new book Exponential.

Azeem reads two pages from ‘The Nature of Technology’ by W. Brian Arthur. [reading begins at 11:15]

Hear us discuss: 

Prosperity versus unease in work: “To not go forward is to go backward.” [16:20] | Understanding Exponential: Talking about Azeem’s book. [18:03] | The most radical idea in the book: “I found myself concluding that we needed more common or collectivist approaches to key issues.” [22:06] | Allowing commonality to emerge. [24:34] | Complicated problems, simple answers: “The outcomes we get will only be as good as the work we put in.” [36:34]

But that’s not the case with my guest today; her surname and how she shows up in the world appear to be a perfect fit. Liz Wiseman is a unique presence in the management and leadership development world, and a wonderful author. She’s justly celebrated for her book Multipliers, and undoubtedly will be for her current book that’s just coming out, Impact Players. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Liz reads two pages from ‘The Road to Character’ by David Brooks. [reading begins at 16:14]

Hear us discuss: 

What does life want from us?: “Magic happens when you have just enough capability to say ‘yes’ and start a project, but not enough capability to finish it.” [22:02] | Managing a plethora of choices: Recognising native genius and ‘blanket no’s. [25:45] | Impact Players: “Amazing things happen when you figure out what the agenda is, and then you work on it.” [32:26]

Dr. Scott A. Small is a brain mechanic; a physician who treats pathological memory disorders like Alzheimer’s, and helps people manage the terrible disease. He’s a man who celebrates the benefits of forgetting, so much that he even wrote a book about it. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Scott reads two pages from ‘Funes the Memorious’ by Jorge Luis Borges. [reading begins at 11:45]

Hear us discuss: 

The freedom of forgetting: “You have to forget to forgive.” [21:06] | How to actively forget. [25:03] | Sustaining precious memories: “We need our memories to be ourselves.” [27:27] | Societal benefits of forgetting. [34:34]

Muriel Wilkins is the author of Own the Room, but she’s best known as the host of a podcast for Harvard Business Review called Coaching Real Leaders, where she coaches real executives in real-time for the whole world to hear. Today, she shares her expertise on a different podcast, with me, and all of you. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Muriel reads two pages from ‘The Untethered Soul’ by Michael Alan Singer. [reading begins at 12:50]

Hear us discuss: 

Being present in the world of work: “I tell my clients, ‘I’m not here to take your challenges away, I’m here to help you lead with a little more ease.’” [21:12] | Letting go of resistance. [25:06] | Living with ambition: “If you hold a rose too tightly, it will eventually die, and in the process, you’ll bleed also.” [27:47] | The source of Muriel’s ambition. [32:01]

David A. Robertson is one of those people who can write for young people. I mean, he can really write for young people. He’s won numerous awards, including the Governor General’s Literary Award, McNally Robinson Book for Young People Award, and the Indigenous Writer of the Year Award at the High Plains Book Awards. Acknowledging these accolades is easy, but the same can’t be said for pinning down his genre. So far, he’s published over 25 books across multiple genres and has no plans of stopping anytime soon. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

David reads two pages from ‘Tom’s Midnight Garden’ by Philippa Pearce. [reading begins at 8:45]

Hear us discuss: 

David’s watershed moment. [13:56] | “I thought, ‘This needs to be out into the world. If no one’s gonna do it, I’ll do it.’ Then I wrote it.” [19:19] | A writer’s relationship with time: “I realised that creating change in the work that I have will take a long time.” [20:30] | The change David wants his work to bring about in the world. [24:51] | The importance of having a strong support system on difficult journeys. [26:54] | Figuring out what to read next. [29:34]

KC, short for Kristoffer Carter, is a coach for C-suite executives and start-up founders. Since becoming a coach, his true focus is on mindset - mindset that flows from spirituality. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Kristoffer reads two pages from ‘Autobiography Of A Yogi’ by Yogananda Paramahamsa. [reading begins at 10:30]

Hear us discuss: 

“I never really started out to find the spiritual path, it kinda found me.” [4:09] | Connecting to your power. [16:58] | “Feel all the feelings”: What does it mean? [18:37] | How burdens help shape us. [21:30] | KC’s book and why he chose the world ‘glow.’ [23:57] | Glowing in the light: Recruiting allies and building community. [27:34] | Making change less of a burden. [30:04]

Sandra Sucher is the Professor of Management Practice at Harvard Business School, and author of a new book: The Power of Trust: How Companies Build It, Lose It, Regain It. Smart companies use the power of trust to keep their customers committed to them. How? Here’s a hint: moral reasoning. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Sandra reads two pages from ‘The Making of the Atomic Bomb’ by Richard Rhodes. [reading begins at 13:20] 

Hear us discuss:

What it takes to nurture moral courage. [21:09] | Navigating different morality: “Assume good intent.” [26:18] | Refining your understanding of moral leadership. [27:57] | Being a moral leader in a flawed system: “It’s always possible to be a moral leader.” [34:44] | Welcoming moral leadership in an organisation. [36:07]

I first came across Jessica Abel’s work upon discovering her book, Out on the Wire. The graphic novel is a must-read for anyone interested in the art of storytelling. And though I’ve written my fair share of books, I don’t really know what it takes to create a full-length graphic novel like Jessica does. In this episode, Jessica gives an inside look on life as a cartoonist, coach, and consultant. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Jessica reads two pages from ‘How to Write an Autobiographical Novel’ by Alexander Chee. [reading begins at 5:30]

Hear us discuss: 

Creativity as a career: Are you sacrificing joy? [8:50] | The line between external and internal validation. [12:08] | What is required for creative focus?: “I thought, ‘I can’t do an okay job on drawing. I can’t just be okay, I have to give it my all. I have to spend the time necessary to do it right, or I’m not gonna get up a level.’” [15:07] | “You have to say no to your own ideas. Learn that saying ‘no’ is saying ‘yes.’” [18:45] | What strong autonomy looks and feels like. [24:32] 

Sara Hendren grew up in a highly conservative, religious, small town in Arkansas. Now, she’s a professor at Olin College of Engineering, just outside Boston, in the liberal North East of the United States. Just as she has a foot in each of these geographical worlds, her work also finds her straddling two worlds: humanities and technology. In her life, there have been many instances where she’s had to adapt after being thrown a curveball, and she joins me today for a conversation about humanism, accommodation, and adaptation. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Sara reads two pages from ‘Life as We Know It’ by Michael Bérubé. [reading begins at 12:20] 

Hear us discuss:

“Nothing human is alien to me.” [9:02] | The effect and reliability of expert opinion: “Expertise, in many cases, is very well-meaning, but it’s driven by a really powerful idea of ‘the average.’ Statistics and averages are useful to us at population scale, but they fall away when they try to describe our individual lives.” [18:12] | Navigating the line between general statistics and individual needs. [22:36] | Shifting your perspective. [27:03] | The evolution of common space. [32:31]

I’ve just finished reading Margaret Heffernan’s wonderful book, Uncharted, and there, she makes the compelling case for the opposite. Navigating the future requires comfort in uncertainty, ambiguity and big dreams, she posits. So what’s the role of confidence in this? Is vulnerability an anathema to confidence, or actually paradoxically foundational to it? 

Rachel Botsman joins me today for an insightful conversation about her experience with the exploration of trust. She has many titles: an author who writes about trust, a lecturer at Oxford University, and a well-regarded keynote speaker. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Rachel reads two pages from ‘Quiet’ by Susan Cain. [reading begins at 8:50]  

Hear us discuss:

“One of my biggest pet peeves is when we conflate confidence with capability and competence.” [15:28] | The connection between humility and trust: “To have humility, you have to be able to sit with uncertainty.” [15:42] | Gaining status when you lack privilege. [16:50] | Having the courage to admit uncertainty: “When you say what you can’t do as much as what you can do, that is rocket fuel for trust.” [21:24] | Implementing trust in organisations. [25:14]

Of course, happiness is elusive. The stories and expectations we’ve internalised about the requirements to achieve happiness are mostly illusions. Stephanie Harrison is a champion for a wiser path to happiness, or as she calls it, The New Happy. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Stephanie reads two pages from ‘The Way of the Bodhisattva’ by Śāntideva. [reading begins at 12:40]

Hear us discuss:

The reluctance to give back to others: “The path to experiencing fulfilment and well-being is the ways in which we relate to other people.” [16:15] | The process of learning to serve. [20:06] | Transcending ‘The Eye.’ [24:48] | Is happiness always a spiritual practice?: “Spirituality is about helping us to be human.” [27:28] | Self-care and self-renewal. [34:35]

Naphtali Bryant, Director of Learning & Organization Development at Netflix, can tell us how to do that. He has lived in two seemingly different worlds: the marines and the world of learning and development. He’s experienced his fair share of being pulled in many different directions, but, much like Stretch Armstrong, he has always been able to keep it together. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Naphtali reads two pages from ‘The 15 Invaluable Laws of Growth’ by John C. Maxwell. [reading beings at 13:10] 

Hear us discuss: 

How tension facilitates growth: “A rubber band is useless if it’s not stretched.” [17:47] | Articulating your purpose. [20:48] | Choosing projects to pursue: Are your motives pure? [23:19] | “Even though you’re being stretched, you will always return to who you are and the core of why you do what you do. It’s not going to break you.” [28:38]

Stacey Vanek Smith is an author, a journalist, and the co-host of NPR's ‘The Indicator from Planet Money.’ She's also on a mission to rehabilitate Machiavelli. There’s much to learn from him, she says, especially when your own needs are compromised by power imbalances. In this episode, Stacey discusses the ups and downs of finding your inner Machiavelli. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Stacey reads two pages from ‘How Proust Can Change Your Life’ by Alain de Botton. [reading begins at 8:07]

Hear us talk about: 

Sitting with the ambiguity and messiness that accompany complexity: “You allow people the complexity of their own experiences and points of view, and the conclusions they draw from it.” [14:36] | Generosity when negotiating. [17:43] | Thinking about power: women versus men. [21:15] | Structural inequities of ‘finding your inner Machiavelli’: “There is a gift in having to fight for things.” [23:26] | Sense of agency. [26:55]

Well, wait. What exactly is groundedness? According to Brad Stulberg, there’s more to it than meets the eye. Brad has just published the third of a trilogy of books, including Peak Performance, The Passion Paradox, and most recently, The Practice of Groundedness. He’s not just an author, though; he’s also a researcher and coach on human performance, sustainable success, and well-being. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Brad reads two pages from ‘The Sane Society’ by Eric Fromm. [reading begins at 10:20] 

Hear us discuss: 

Does the arrival fallacy affect all generations? [15:29] | Navigating struggle and ‘failure.’ [19:01] | Pondering and nurturing a ‘deep community.’ [22:19] | Balancing short-term demands and long-term commitment: “The intellect is what can motivate, but the practice has to be really concrete, otherwise it breaks down very easily.” [24:56] | Becoming more involved in your community. [28:09] | “You don’t just become grounded. It’s not just a switch that you flick. It’s an ongoing practice.” [30:48] 

Nichola Raihani is a fan of cooperation and has much to say about its relationship with competition in our everyday lives. Nichola is a Professor of Evolution and Behaviour and a Royal Society University Research Fellow at University College London, and the author of the newly released book, The Social Instinct: How Cooperation Shaped the World. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Nichola reads two pages from ‘On the Origin of Species’ by Charles Darwin. [reading begins at 25:10] 

Hear us discuss:

Cooperation and competition: “Cooperation is ultimately a form of competition.” [5:36] | Engineering and increasing cooperation. [32:35] | How punishment impacts cooperation: “The threat of punishment can be quite effective to induce cooperation, but when it is actually executed, it can cause cooperation to completely unravel.” [38:00] | “A lot of the time, the reason people are cooperative is because it feels really good to help other people.” [46:41] 

How far have you pushed yourself? What’s the most fragile edge of yourself that you’ve stumbled out towards? If I had to choose one instance, it would be the time I ran a marathon with no training. I came in last, and I came in at the very limit of what I could’ve done. I was at my edge. 

Jenny Valentish has explored the edges, both light and dark, not only in her writing, but in living her life. Jenny’s the author of Everything Harder Than Everyone Else, and a journalist. She joins me today to discuss the journey of reinvention. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Jenny reads two pages from ‘The Hero’s Body’ by William Giraldi. [reading begins at 9:34] 

Hear us talk about: 

The place for joy in reinvention. [14:45] | Is satisfaction attainable?: “The paradox of being very goal-oriented is that goals have disappointment built into them.” [18:07] | Celebrating the moment. [23:40] | Managing ‘the crash’: “There’s no rush. It can take a couple of years for an idea to slot into place, so don’t panic.” [25:18] | Uncovering what’s next. [27:57]

There’s a New Yorker story called The Dolt by Donald Bartheleme. The final sentence reads thus: ‘Endings are elusive, middles are nowhere to be found, but worst of all is to begin, to begin, to begin.’ 

Tom Vanderbilt, journalist, and author, calls himself a perpetual beginner. He has written a little about a lot of things and has repeatedly been put in interesting positions. This has enabled him to write his most recent book: Beginners: The Joy and Transformative Power of Lifelong Learning, and share the ideal thinking we should adopt when facing those ‘beginner’s challenges’ that arise when learning new things. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Tom reads two pages from ‘Range’ by David Epstein. [reading begins at 8:45] 

Hear us talk about: 

How the exploration of various skills influences a writer. [13:04] | The art of beginning and learning: “We’re all beginners in our unique ways, and also in the same way.” [14:55] | Surviving conscious incompetence: “Progress is not always a linear process upwards.” [18:40] | Does it help to wallow in your mistakes? [22:34] | Productive mistakes. [25:07] | “Skill learning is mainly unconscious.” [27:57] | How to become an improved teacher. [32:25]

Kieran Setiya is a professor of philosophy at MIT in Boston, and the author of Midlife: A Philosophical Guide. In this episode, he shares the fundamentals of navigating problems and finding existential value in the midst of a crisis. Get‌ ‌book‌ ‌links‌ ‌and‌ ‌resources‌ ‌at‌ https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/ 

Kieran reads two pages from ‘Nicomachean Ethics’ by Aristotle. [reading begins at 7:50] 

Hear us discuss: 

Atelic activities and existential value. [13:37] | When to settle and when to disrupt: “Looking for an algorithm to tell you how to solve your life is not the way to do it.” [18:59] | Death’s role in shaping a meaningful life: “Thinking about the finitude of human life has changed my sense of what actually matters.” [24:41] |Changes in ambition when navigating midlife. [31:18] 

Jessica reads two pages from Michael Finkel’s The Stranger in the Woods, the Extraordinary Story of the Last True Hermit [Reading starts at 07:45]

Hear us talk about:

Coming to humour through language [03:05] | What we can learn from people at the extreme end of normal [11:50] | How to find new points of input [15:00] | Being fearless [16:45] | What we really want to be when we grow up [20:35] | The importance of structure [25:15]

Tamsen reads two pages from Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me) by Carol Tavris and Elliot Aronson [Reading starts at 19:25]

Hear us talk about:

The power of story and argument in communication [4:44] | How to construct a story-argument [11:31] | How to be a successful human [23:48] | Finding your ‘red thread’ [27:34] | Ideas need to be built [30:38]

Pamay reads two pages from ‘The War of Art’ by Steven Pressfield. [reading begins at 14:30] 

Hear us talk about:

Battling resistance. [19:48] | “Learning anything is actually difficult.” [22:40] | Overcoming resistance at scale: “The idea of having a practice or habit is the antidote.” [23:53] | Making an impact in a new place: “The foundation is culture.” [26:02]

Julia reads two pages from the book ‘How to Actually Change Your Mind’ by Eliezer Yudkowsky. [reading begins at 11:25] 

Hear us talk about: 

The emotional satisfaction of having uncertainty in your beliefs: “If you see things in black and white, then you have to fight off any evidence that contradicts your theory.” [17:43] | Engaging in arguments without feeling personally attacked. [19:52] | Admitting you’re wrong: “Being wrong doesn’t necessarily mean you did something wrong.” [27:58] | The role of emotions in bettering your thinking: “There would be no reason to do anything if we had no emotions at all.” [32:35]

Joel reads from the book ‘Act Like a Leader, Think Like a Leader’ by Herminia Ibarra. [reading begins at 16:05]

Hear us talk about: 

“When I try to introspect or reflect my way into new behaviours, I’m always going to be confined by what I know and how I’ve thought in the past. I can’t think my way into that, I just need to try new things.” [21:39] | The S-curve in personal development: “What got you here, won’t get you there.” [22:15] | Acting like the person you want to become. [24:17] | Being comfortable with failure and making mistakes. [25:56]

Lisa reads two pages from ‘Leadership and the New Science: Discovering Order in a Chaotic World’ by Meg Wheatley. [reading begins at 08:18]

Hear us talk about:

The fears lying at the heart of traditional management. [15:46] | The brokenness of relationships within organisations. [17:15] | Where to start in paying attention to relationships: ‘Self-reflection is the first step in fixing relationships.’ [20:34] | How crucial it is to have an active connection to your emotions. [24:48] | “Addressing the paradigm from which you operate must come before development conversations.” [26:34] | “Power is energy.” [31:21] | How to articulate power. [35:23] | How to start building your tribe - the comfort of finding other people who share the same frustrations and goals. [38:05]

Swati reads two pages from ‘Ghost Work: How to Stop Silicon Valley from Building a New Global Underclass’ by Mary L. Gray and Siddharth Suri. [reading begins at 15:04]

Hear us talk about:

What ‘world positive means from an investment standpoint: ‘Being an investor requires being a concerned and active citizen.’ [1:14] | What Swati offers as a non-traditional venture capitalist. [5:55] | Building and shaping new technology ventures. [20:45] | What influences investment decisions? [23:07] | The value-based diligence process when picking companies to invest in. [24:12] | The modern meaning of ‘work.’ [28:09]

Oliver reads two pages from ‘Finding Meaning in the Second Half of Life’ by James Hollis. [reading begins at 12:27]

Hear us talk about:

Is wisdom only accessible through suffering? :The greatest goal is to make life more interesting.” [15:23] | The difference between the people who travel through ‘the wood’ and those who get stuck in ‘the wood.’ [18:32] | “Every moment of an authentically lived life is an encounter with its limitations, finitude and death.” [22:46] | How thinking that problems shouldn’t exist in life makes you unhappy: “What makes it unbearable is your mistaken belief that it can be cured.” [25:56]

Minna reads two pages from ‘The Sex Lives of African Women’ by Nana Darkoa Sekyiamah. [reading starts at 07:32]

Hear us talk about:

The search for freedom and healing among different sexualities, religions, and backgrounds. [11:31] | Taking back your power: “It is imperative to reimagine and unlearn everything that we think about power itself.” [14:14] | The ‘river’ metaphor for understanding power: “Power for humans is the equivalent of gravity for rivers - it is how we move forward to our destination.” [20:37] | “It is difficult to dominate people who feel conscientious joy.” [23:05] | The danger of passivity when rage disappears. [25:53] | Returning to freedom and finding home. [28:43] | How to decide where to share your voice. [30:53]

Martin reads two pages from 'Radical Uncertainty: Decision-Making Beyond the Numbers' by John Kay and Mervyn King. [reading begins at 07:34]

Hear us talk about:

The limitation of quantitative models and statistics. [11:22] | How Martin brings the concepts of storytelling and imagination into business conversations with clients: 'To create alignment, excitement and motivation, you need more than numbers.' [13:34] | How to keep curiosity and imagination alive in instances where efficiency is viewed as the main goal. [19:43] | Ways to measure success beyond the metrics: 'There are some things in life that you cannot obtain by pursuing them directly." [25:42] | Martin's experience and realisations in co-writing his book 'The Imagination Machine.' [31:01]

Julie reads two pages from 'Educated' by Tara Westover. [reading begins at 11:18]

Hear us talk about:

Julie's experience of finding her identity and how she harnessed this experience: ‘We must unburden ourselves from the shame installed in us by the opinions of others.’ [20:40] | How to stop seeking conformity and living to please others. [22:47] | How to find your own voice: 'Our doubtful feelings are just as much substantial proof of us being miserable as our bodies breaking down from stress.’ [27:52] | Differentiating which challenges make you stronger and which ones will make you miserable. [33:02] | What it means to be an activist. [36:21] | Moving from fear to love - What keeps us stuck in fear? [39:06]

Katy reads from ‘Nudge: Improving Decisions About Health, Wealth, and Happiness’ by Cass Sunstein and Richard Thaler. [reading begins at 08:19]

Hear us talk about:

Myths about behaviour change: 'There is no "one size fits all" approach to changing behaviour.' [3:32] | How to ethically think about being a 'choice architect.' [15:30] | The nuances of paternalism. [19:16] | How to inoculate yourself against manipulation that is not in your best interest: 'Knowledge and context should shape all decisions.' [21:28] | Insights around behaviour change and how it works: 'Rigidity in expectations will be our downfall.' [26:05] | How Katy's thinking on behaviour change has evolved over the years. [31:50]

John reads two pages from ‘Rapt: Attention and the Focused Life’ by Winifred Gallagher. [reading starts at 08:03]

Hear us talk about:

How to decide if something is worth your attention. [15:09] | 'Your happiness and sense of purpose are filtered through the impact you have on other people.' [20:17] | 'Almost everything in life contains its own inherent value and reward.' [22:43] | The true meaning of contentment. [23:30] | How to remain content in the face of failures. [25:41] | How to seek out the right partners and team members. [29:47] | The ‘Sprint process’ in John’s book. [31:57]

Luke reads two pages from 'Things Hidden Since the Foundation of the World' by René Girard. [reading begins at 13:44]

Hear us talk about:

The process of deconstructing and reconstructing yourself. [06:38] | How mimesis contributes to conflict: 'Imitation of desires leads to rivalry and conflict.' [17:50] | Is conflict a natural part of the human condition? [20:16] | The positive effect of cultivating relationships in unexpected places. [28:20] | The opportunity cost of choices: 'Decisions come with the renunciation of other opportunities.' [35:51] | Shaping desires. [37:22]

Jordan reads two pages from the graphic novel 'Nubia: Real One' by L.L. McKinney. [reading begins at 20:08]

Hear us talk about:

Forging partnerships. [9:41] | Having productive conversations and disagreements without breaking a relationship. [14:23] | Having your powers acknowledged: “Stop hiding your powers and step into it.” [21:01] | Holding onto your sense of power, identity, and politics in environments where there are forces pulling you away from them. [23:38] | Creating and building a community for other women of colour. [25:16] | “It is an act of activism to be 100% yourself.” [27:53]

Matthew reads the essay ‘Toward a Fateful Serenity’ written by his grandfather, Jacques Barzun. [reading begins at 8:40] 

Hear us discuss:

Actively managing your power: “You don’t give away power to be selfless. You do it because you’ll get it back through others, so you can continue the cycle.” [15:30] | The power pyramid. [22:55] | The constellation: a symbol for interdependence. [28:26] | Understanding and tackling the systems around us. [30:58] | The pyramid versus the constellation. [33:10] | Creating a ‘constellation’ within an organisation: does the system always win? [36:28] | Applying the constellation mindset: “The more people who do it together, the better it goes.” [39:49] | Managing risk. [42:38]

Caroline reads ‘On Being White ... And Other Lies,’ an essay by James Baldwin that was published in Essence. [reading begins at 16:22] 

Hear us discuss: 

“Whiteness is constructed by rejecting and debasing blackness.” [20:07] | Recognising the power of privilege. [23:19] | What it means to be an activist: “Taking action for social change is why I’m here on this planet.” [26:44] | “I’m all about the cause. I don’t want the title; I don’t want credit. I don’t care, as long as the culture shifts.” [33:31]

Vikram reads from ‘The Peter Principle’ by Laurence J. Peter. [reading beings at 14:56] 

Hear us discuss:

“Every single perspective is limited, biased, and incomplete.” [6:30] | “We’re so focused on the evaluation of the present that we’re not willing to consider an alternative for the future.” [20:18] | The ‘career jungle gym’. [21:49] | Holistic development: moving through the stages of learning. [26:20] | Being a generalist versus playing to your strengths. [28:57] | Nurturing curiosity. [32:34]

Dolly reads from A More Beautiful and Terrible History: The Uses and Misuses of Civil Rights History by Jeanne Theoharis. [reading begins at 11:23]

Hear us discuss: 

Addressing systemic bias: “Unlearning what we know and learning what’s correct makes it easier to see the systems around us.” [21:00] | Learning to unlearn: the ‘paradox mindset.’ [24:19] | Counteracting simple narratives: “You don’t have to believe only one thing.” [27:27] 

Ximena reads two pages from ‘Reclaiming Conversation: The Power of Talk in a Digital Age’ by Sherry Turkle. [reading begins at 16:02]

Hear us talk about: 

The importance of boredom. [21:12] | Navigating loneliness: “It’s hard to feel lonely when you feel understood and seen in a conversation.” [25:35] | Becoming someone that others listen to: “Conversations come with needs.” [28:04]

Indra reads from Ken Wilbur’s ‘A Theory of Everything.’ [Reading begins at 28:10]

Hear us talk about:

The definition of power. “Too often seen as force or coercion.” [2:45] | “People came together in extraordinary ways.” [13:31] | “It’s not politics itself which is toxic…” [36:28] | A force of change. [43:16]

Christa reads from ‘Brilliant Imperfection: Grappling with Cure’ by Eli Clare. [reading begins at 16:30] 

Hear us talk about: 

Acceptance and empowerment: “My body is good enough.” [23:04] | “I am not the broken one here; it’s the ideas that are broken.” [25:55] | Moving beyond shame. [29:27]

A.J. reads from Ecclesiastes 9:7-12. [reading begins at 10:08] 

Hear us further discuss: 

“How much of life is luck?” [14:04] | Reframing a bad break: “Embrace the suck.” [20:08] | Carpe diem. [22:37] | Dignity of work and commitment: “Do something in the world! Don’t sit back and be a passive observer.” [25:18] | Finding the courage to commit fully. [26:38] | Wisdom: distinguishing wisdom from knowledge. [29:50]

Magdy reads from ‘Dare to Lead: Brave Work. Tough Conversations. Whole Hearts.’ by Brené Brown. [reading begins at 11:10] 

Hear us further discuss: 

Evading hero syndrome. [16:33] | “There is no shame in not knowing or failing.” [20:05] | What we need to unlearn when adopting a growth mindset. [20:34] | Making inclusion a reality. [22:40] | Leading as an introvert. [25:00] | “Getting comfortable with what you’re doing means it’s time for change.” [31:24]

Ashley reads two pages from the book ‘The Rise: Creativity, the Gift of Failure, and the Search for Mastery’ by Sarah Lewis. [reading begins at 15:34] 

You’ll also hear us talk about: 

The transformational quality of failure. [22:24] | Different responses to failure. [26:55] | “Theoretically, it is true that we can all repair with gold, but it is not psychologically true for everyone.” [27:39] | Coping with failure. [28:09] | “Being transformed by failure requires us to acknowledge that things are hard. It is always possible to be your wisest self in your worst moments.” [34:07]

David reads from Walter Keichel’s ‘The Lords of Strategy.’ [reading begins at 16:20]

We discuss: 

“The only way to remain relevant is through a commitment to personal reinvention.” [23:30] | 

“Think less about where you can find curve benders and more about how you can become one.” [25:10] | The role of exile in change. [26:33] | Finding freedom within the constraints of expectation. [28:44] | The entrepreneurial mindset. [31:21]

Jennifer reads from ‘Leadership and Self-Deception’ by The Arbinger Institute. [Reading begins at 9:40] 

You’ll also hear us talk about: 

Being ‘in the box.’ [13:15] | Staying present to humanity in difficult conversations. [19:35] | “People talk in symptoms. There is a need somewhere, even if they don’t articulate it.” [20:32] | Culture hacking. [21:06] | Building influence in new organisations. [23:50] | Intellectual humility. [25:47] | “Trust is the key to human growth.” [30:09]

“Living is easy with eyes closed

Misunderstanding all you see

It’s getting hard to be someone but it all works out 

It doesn’t matter much to me” 

How do lyrics from “Strawberry Fields Forever” become a doorway to a conversation about conflict and creativity? Ian Leslie, bestselling author, thought leader in human behaviour, and Beatles nerd digs into the art of productive conflict, ridiculous standards, and the magic of Sir George Martin. Get book links and resources at https://www.mbs.works/2-pages-podcast/

Ian reads from the book ‘Revolution in the Head’ by Ian MacDonald. [Reading begins at 8:13]

Listen to this episode to learn:

“Demanding the impossible.” [18:07] | Understanding productive conflict. [20:11] | “Conflict is essential to creativity and innovation.” [22:20] | Staying present in heated moments. [23:46] | The link between conflict and curiosity. [26:46] | Managing egos during disagreements. [30:09]

Dan reads from 21 Letters on Life and Its Challenges by Charles Handy. [reading begins at 6:05]

Furthermore, we discuss: 

“To me, the organization is a family” [11:03] | Challenges associated with adopting a human-centered way of thinking [14:13] | “You’re only as good as your last interaction with someone.” [21:02] | Being willing to embrace empathy in the workplace [22:02] | Organizational evolution [28:57] | “Once you change yourself, you can help to change others.” [33:55]

Shannon reads from David Foster Wallace’s essay “A Supposedly Fun Thing I’ll Never Do Again.” [reading begins at 4:27]        

You’ll hear Shannon and Michael further discuss: 

Temporal finitude: how being aware of death affects our living. [10:47] | “Part of being an adult is making decisions which foreclose other options.” [15:55] | Being radically candid. [16:39] | How to become comfortable with making brave choices. [24:54] | “You can create a more beautiful thing by setting boundaries within which it has to be created.” [29:25] | Rejecting comfort and ease: “Create cultures in which people can feel less alienated from their labor.” [32:08]

Nell reads pages from Tara Mohr’s book, ‘Playing Big: Practical Wisdom for Women Who Want to Speak up, Create, and Lead.’ [reading begins at 3:36]

Michael and Nell explore:

How to be a change agent [7:33] | Fixing the social change sector [13:49] | How abundance works [15:46] | Welcome to the ‘transition team’ [19:37] | Three key takeaways from Nell’s book [26:13]

Roman reads pages from John McPhee’s book ‘Basin and Range.’ [reading begins at 6:22]        

Hear Michael and Roman talk about: 

Channeling your anger into constructive action. [11:28] | Being a ‘good ancestor.’ [14:03] | “We can change our habits,” Roman says. [21:10] | “Nothing in nature grows forever.” [24:27] | Activists’ responses to Roman’s book and the concept of long-term thinking. [25:49] | “Take care of the place that will take care of our offspring.” [30:00]

Minda reads from ‘Kindred,’ written by Octavia Butler. [reading begins at 8:05] 

Michael and Minda discuss: 

The importance of affording opportunities to women of color. [12:50] | How to be a good ally. [16:10] | “Listen, educate, activate.” [17:00] | “We all have the ability to speak someone else’s name in the room.” [17:48] | Rewriting your story and changing the narrative. [18:04] | “We are able to redefine what success means for us.” [19:15] | “In that moment, I was the handhold for myself.” [22:44]

Mason reads two pages from the book ‘The Magic Mountain’ by Thomas Mann. [reading begins at 4:23] 

Michael and Mason talk about: 

How mortality affects the way we show up in the world [10:53] | Transitioning into another world [13:48] | Rituals that allow creativity to flourish [16:30] | “Inspiration comes through your work rather than the other way around.” [17:38] | Sharing your work with others: how to be fragile but not shattered [18:29] | Art gets stronger when it’s beaten [20:15]

Riaz reads from the book ‘Everyone Communicates, Few Connect’ by John C. Maxwell, explaining that he has always been fascinated by the art of how and why we connect. [reading begins at 5:00] 

Furthermore, you’ll hear MBS and Riaz discuss: 

The book’s impact on Riaz [9:10] | Arrogance as an interviewer [10:39] | Establishing connection and trust [13:17] | Perfecting one’s craft while remaining humble [18:19] | Navigating and evoking emotion [25:20]

The book Octavia reads from is titled ‘Year of Yes: How to Dance It Out, Stand In the Sun and Be Your Own Person,’ written by Shonda Rhimes. [reading begins at 4:15] 

You’ll hear MBS and Octavia discuss: 

Managing vulnerability when starting new projects [10:45] | Receiving validation [15:44] | What success means [19:41] | What Octavia aims to teach her readers [21:20] | Women of colour can’t fix all of the systemic issues alone [22:18] | Realising your worth [25:05]

Monika reads pages from ‘Sensuous Knowledge: A Black Feminist Approach for Everyone’ by Minna Salami. [reading begins at 5:44]

Michael and Monika also talk about:

The book’s impact on Monika [15:23] | What makes life so livable [17:03] | Our ongoing evolution as people [17:45] | Focusing less on passing the finish line [20:33] | Creating brave and safe spaces [21:34]

Dig selected the book ‘In Search of Excellence’ by Tom J. Peters and Robert H. Waterman Jr. [reading begins at 3:40] 

MBS and Dig Howitt discuss: 

The book’s impact on Dig [7:42] | Leadership versus management [10:03] | The relationship between strategy and culture [11:30] | Being a follower and a leader [13:25] | Improving failure capacity within a company [16:45] | Building a strong leadership team [20:15] | Diverse views within a team [22:30]