Pod Only Knows http://www.cageclub.me/pod-only-knows en-us ℗ & © 2020 The CageClub Podcast Network Hosted by Dr. Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks. Kelly and John invite other people from the wide and wild world of religious studies to talk to them about why and how they do what they do and why their work matters to us all. They also talk to each other about the ideas, stories, and histories that fascinate them and that they think you should know about, too. https://megaphone.imgix.net/podcasts/b994711c-a9ac-11ea-9067-b336859e3bad/image/POK_3000x3000.png?ixlib=rails-4.3.1&max-w=3000&max-h=3000&fit=crop&auto=format,compress Pod Only Knows http://www.cageclub.me/pod-only-knows yes episodic (Formerly "Hard to Believe") Two people from the serious world of religious studies take a sometimes serious, sometimes irreverent, and always curious look at the way religion shows up in our world. Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Hosted by Dr. Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks. Kelly and John invite other people from the wide and wild world of religious studies to talk to them about why and how they do what they do and why their work matters to us all. They also talk to each other about the ideas, stories, and histories that fascinate them and that they think you should know about, too. Hosted by Dr. Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks. Kelly and John invite other people from the wide and wild world of religious studies to talk to them about why and how they do what they do and why their work matters to us all. They also talk to each other about the ideas, stories, and histories that fascinate them and that they think you should know about, too.

]]> Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks pok@cageclub.me https://feeds.megaphone.fm/hardtobelieve Sarah Posner - On her new podcast, Epstein, and other news Friend of the pod Sarah Posner joins John to discuss her great new podcast, Reign of Error. They also look at the various ways of understanding new developments in the Epstein case through the religious studies lens. *IMPORTANT PODCAST UPDATE* Kelly will be taking a few months away from the show. We plan to get back to normal rotation in the summer. In the meantime, John will be joined by some friends of the show for some conversations on the goings on in the news. During that time, we won't be following a normal release schedule, so get ready for some nice surprises! Mon, 09 Feb 2026 05:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Friend of the pod Sarah Posner joins John to discuss her great new podcast, Reign of Error. They also look at the various ways of understanding new developments in the Epstein case through the religious studies lens. *IMPORTANT PODCAST UPDATE* Kelly will be taking a few months away from the show. We plan to get back to normal rotation in the summer. In the meantime, John will be joined by some friends of the show for some conversations on the goings on in the news. During that time, we won't be following a normal release schedule, so get ready for some nice surprises! Friend of the pod Sarah Posner joins John to discuss her great new podcast, Reign of Error. They also look at the various ways of understanding new developments in the Epstein case through the religious studies lens.

*IMPORTANT PODCAST UPDATE*

Kelly will be taking a few months away from the show. We plan to get back to normal rotation in the summer. In the meantime, John will be joined by some friends of the show for some conversations on the goings on in the news. During that time, we won't be following a normal release schedule, so get ready for some nice surprises!

]]> 2972 RERELEASE (from 12/23): Ghosts of Christmas Past - with Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman Kelly is away, so our next new episode will be released in two weeks. This is a rerelease of an episode originally published on December 19th, 2023. But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph. Tue, 23 Dec 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks In a rerelease from last Christmas season, Folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman join Kelly and John to talk about the ghosts that haunted the Victorian Christmas.0 Kelly is away, so our next new episode will be released in two weeks. This is a rerelease of an episode originally published on December 19th, 2023. But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph. Kelly is away, so our next new episode will be released in two weeks.


This is a rerelease of an episode originally published on December 19th, 2023.


But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black.


So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol.

And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past.

Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again?

This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph.

]]> 3326 RERELEASE (from 12/24): Did Dickens "Invent" Christmas? - with Kristen Hanley Cardozo The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today. There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him. So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist ⁠Kristen Hanley Cardozo⁠ to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season. Tue, 16 Dec 2025 17:30:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today. There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him. So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist ⁠Kristen Hanley Cardozo⁠ to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season.

The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today.

There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him.

So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist ⁠Kristen Hanley Cardozo⁠ to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season.

]]> 3639 #060 - Selling Out Santa - with Vaughn Joy https://www.cageclub.me/selling-out-santa/ Dr. Vaughn Joy's new book, Selling Out Santa, explores the role Christmas movies played in shaping American culture (and vice-versa) during the Cold War. Via a case study on Hollywood Christmas films released between 1946 and 1961, Selling Out Santa offers an examination of political pressures on Hollywood in the post-war period and the cultural ramifications of federal involvement in the motion picture industry. As the House Committee on Un-American Activities opened hearings in 1947 and the FBI gathered reports on potential communist subversion in Frank Capra’s Christmas classic It’s a Wonderful Life (1946), Hollywood executives began to bend to the socially conservative pressures of this post-war moment. In this episode, Kelly and John talk to Vaughn about the genesis of her book and the ways in which Christmas movies have evolved into the Hallmark rom-coms we have all come to know and love-or-hate today. You can find Vaughn on Bluesky @gvaughnjoy Tue, 09 Dec 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Researcher Vaughn Joy discusses the Cold War era evolution of Christmas movies with her book "Selling Out Santa" Dr. Vaughn Joy's new book, Selling Out Santa, explores the role Christmas movies played in shaping American culture (and vice-versa) during the Cold War. Via a case study on Hollywood Christmas films released between 1946 and 1961, Selling Out Santa offers an examination of political pressures on Hollywood in the post-war period and the cultural ramifications of federal involvement in the motion picture industry. As the House Committee on Un-American Activities opened hearings in 1947 and the FBI gathered reports on potential communist subversion in Frank Capra’s Christmas classic It’s a Wonderful Life (1946), Hollywood executives began to bend to the socially conservative pressures of this post-war moment. In this episode, Kelly and John talk to Vaughn about the genesis of her book and the ways in which Christmas movies have evolved into the Hallmark rom-coms we have all come to know and love-or-hate today. You can find Vaughn on Bluesky @gvaughnjoy Dr. Vaughn Joy's new book, Selling Out Santa, explores the role Christmas movies played in shaping American culture (and vice-versa) during the Cold War.

Via a case study on Hollywood Christmas films released between 1946 and 1961, Selling Out Santa offers an examination of political pressures on Hollywood in the post-war period and the cultural ramifications of federal involvement in the motion picture industry. As the House Committee on Un-American Activities opened hearings in 1947 and the FBI gathered reports on potential communist subversion in Frank Capra’s Christmas classic It’s a Wonderful Life (1946), Hollywood executives began to bend to the socially conservative pressures of this post-war moment.

In this episode, Kelly and John talk to Vaughn about the genesis of her book and the ways in which Christmas movies have evolved into the Hallmark rom-coms we have all come to know and love-or-hate today.

You can find Vaughn on Bluesky @gvaughnjoy

]]> 4316 RERELEASE: Unraveling the Thanksgiving Myth - with Dr. David J. Silverman (11/2023) RERELEASE FROM 11/2023 What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. Thu, 27 Nov 2025 12:57:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks RERELEASE FROM 11/2023 What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. RERELEASE FROM 11/2023

What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you?

Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one.

But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core.

And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots.

It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population.

To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us.

]]> 4382 #059 – The Passion of the Marjorie Taylor Greene https://www.cageclub.me/marjorie-taylor-greene/ It's been a heck of a week on the internet! Marjorie Taylor Greene went from MAGA darling to MAGA outcast and from Georgia Congresswoman to Soon-to-be-Former Georgie Congresswoman in record time. We look at her attempted redemption/resurrection story with a skeptical eye, muse on what this means for the future or MAGA. Plus - Silicon Valley is suddenly obsessed with the End Times and Peter Thiel is worried about the Antichrist, who, as it turns out, happens to probably be all the things Peter Thiel doesn't like! And the US Bishops push back against Trump while the Pope decrees the four best films and rocks the mic at a rave! Adam Willems: An ex-Intel CEO’s mission to build a Christian AI: ‘hasten the coming of Christ’s return’ Tue, 25 Nov 2025 09:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk Marjorie Taylor Greene, Peter Thiel, and the Pope's newfound love of raves It's been a heck of a week on the internet! Marjorie Taylor Greene went from MAGA darling to MAGA outcast and from Georgia Congresswoman to Soon-to-be-Former Georgie Congresswoman in record time. We look at her attempted redemption/resurrection story with a skeptical eye, muse on what this means for the future or MAGA. Plus - Silicon Valley is suddenly obsessed with the End Times and Peter Thiel is worried about the Antichrist, who, as it turns out, happens to probably be all the things Peter Thiel doesn't like! And the US Bishops push back against Trump while the Pope decrees the four best films and rocks the mic at a rave! Adam Willems: An ex-Intel CEO’s mission to build a Christian AI: ‘hasten the coming of Christ’s return’ It's been a heck of a week on the internet!

Marjorie Taylor Greene went from MAGA darling to MAGA outcast and from Georgia Congresswoman to Soon-to-be-Former Georgie Congresswoman in record time.

We look at her attempted redemption/resurrection story with a skeptical eye, muse on what this means for the future or MAGA.

Plus - Silicon Valley is suddenly obsessed with the End Times and Peter Thiel is worried about the Antichrist, who, as it turns out, happens to probably be all the things Peter Thiel doesn't like!

And the US Bishops push back against Trump while the Pope decrees the four best films and rocks the mic at a rave!

Adam Willems: An ex-Intel CEO’s mission to build a Christian AI: ‘hasten the coming of Christ’s return’

]]> 3366 #058 – THE EXORCIST EFFECT with Joseph Laycock https://www.cageclub.me/the-exorcist-effect-laycock/ Last episode we discussed The Exorcist, so this time we're taking a closer look its impact on our culture and religious beliefs as explored in The Exorcist Effect by Eric Harrelson and our guest Joseph Laycock. Laycock is an associate professor of religious studies at Texas State University. He holds a MTS from Harvard Divinity School and a PhD from Boston University and has written several books on new religious movements and American religious history. Much of his work explores how pop culture and religion collide, and The Exorcist Effect looks at the ongoing relationship between horror movies and Western religious culture, with a focus on the period from 1968 to the modern day. He joins Kelly and John to talk about how and why The Exorcist changed the Catholic (and broadly religious) imagination, and why so many moral panic stem from people who can't distinguish movies from real life. Joe is on Bluesky @josephlaycock Tue, 11 Nov 2025 09:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Scholar and author Joseph Laycock joins us to talk about his book "The Exorcist Effect" and how movies influence what and how we believe. Last episode we discussed The Exorcist, so this time we're taking a closer look its impact on our culture and religious beliefs as explored in The Exorcist Effect by Eric Harrelson and our guest Joseph Laycock. Laycock is an associate professor of religious studies at Texas State University. He holds a MTS from Harvard Divinity School and a PhD from Boston University and has written several books on new religious movements and American religious history. Much of his work explores how pop culture and religion collide, and The Exorcist Effect looks at the ongoing relationship between horror movies and Western religious culture, with a focus on the period from 1968 to the modern day. He joins Kelly and John to talk about how and why The Exorcist changed the Catholic (and broadly religious) imagination, and why so many moral panic stem from people who can't distinguish movies from real life. Joe is on Bluesky @josephlaycock Last episode we discussed The Exorcist, so this time we're taking a closer look its impact on our culture and religious beliefs as explored in The Exorcist Effect by Eric Harrelson and our guest Joseph Laycock.

Laycock is an associate professor of religious studies at Texas State University. He holds a MTS from Harvard Divinity School and a PhD from Boston University and has written several books on new religious movements and American religious history.

Much of his work explores how pop culture and religion collide, and The Exorcist Effect looks at the ongoing relationship between horror movies and Western religious culture, with a focus on the period from 1968 to the modern day.

He joins Kelly and John to talk about how and why The Exorcist changed the Catholic (and broadly religious) imagination, and why so many moral panic stem from people who can't distinguish movies from real life.

Joe is on Bluesky @josephlaycock

]]> 4001 #057 – THE EXORCIST with Matthew J. Cressler https://www.cageclub.me/the-exorcist-cressler/ 1973's The Exorcist is a landmark film for any number of reasons (many of which we get into here). It's also a film Kelly had never seen, and a favorite of our friend Matthew J. Cressler. Matt talked to us about Catholic horror and The Exorcist two years ago, but we really wanted to dig into the film in detail, so here we are. The Exorcist is one of many examples of art imitating life imitating art. It both revived a certain kind of supernatural zeal in Catholicism while also exploring an underlying aversion to the same. While it's not always successful and doesn't necessarily hold the same shock value it once did, it also completely reimagined what a horror film could be and provided proof of concept that the public was ready to explore and challenge religious ideas in new and sometime shocking ways. And like a lot of other horror that has captured the cultural imagination throughout history, The Exorcist spilled over into the real world, giving rise to the idea that the film was cursed. And in the next episode, we'll take a closer look at its cultural and religious impact. Matt is on Bluesky @mjcressler Tue, 28 Oct 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Our friend and Catholic horror expert joins us for Halloween to talk about his favorite movie, 1973's The Exorcist! 1973's The Exorcist is a landmark film for any number of reasons (many of which we get into here). It's also a film Kelly had never seen, and a favorite of our friend Matthew J. Cressler. Matt talked to us about Catholic horror and The Exorcist two years ago, but we really wanted to dig into the film in detail, so here we are. The Exorcist is one of many examples of art imitating life imitating art. It both revived a certain kind of supernatural zeal in Catholicism while also exploring an underlying aversion to the same. While it's not always successful and doesn't necessarily hold the same shock value it once did, it also completely reimagined what a horror film could be and provided proof of concept that the public was ready to explore and challenge religious ideas in new and sometime shocking ways. And like a lot of other horror that has captured the cultural imagination throughout history, The Exorcist spilled over into the real world, giving rise to the idea that the film was cursed. And in the next episode, we'll take a closer look at its cultural and religious impact. Matt is on Bluesky @mjcressler 1973's The Exorcist is a landmark film for any number of reasons (many of which we get into here). It's also a film Kelly had never seen, and a favorite of our friend Matthew J. Cressler. Matt talked to us about Catholic horror and The Exorcist two years ago, but we really wanted to dig into the film in detail, so here we are.

The Exorcist is one of many examples of art imitating life imitating art. It both revived a certain kind of supernatural zeal in Catholicism while also exploring an underlying aversion to the same.

While it's not always successful and doesn't necessarily hold the same shock value it once did, it also completely reimagined what a horror film could be and provided proof of concept that the public was ready to explore and challenge religious ideas in new and sometime shocking ways. And like a lot of other horror that has captured the cultural imagination throughout history, The Exorcist spilled over into the real world, giving rise to the idea that the film was cursed.

And in the next episode, we'll take a closer look at its cultural and religious impact.

Matt is on Bluesky @mjcressler

]]> 4588 #056 – Paranormal America with Darryl Caterine https://www.cageclub.me/darryl-caterine/ It's spooky season, and to start off our spooky and spooky-adjacent episodes, Kelly and John talk to scholar Darryl Caterine, author of 2011's Haunted Ground: Journeys through a Paranormal America which explores the meaning of our nation’s fascination with paranormal phenomena through a series of thick descriptions and analyses of a Spiritualist camp in upstate New York, the Roswell UFO Festival in New Mexico, and an annual dowsing convention in Vermont. Caterine is a historian of religions whose research focuses on the intersections of religion, culture, and politics in the United States and parts of Latin America. His areas of academic interest include Latino/a religions, metaphysical/occult religions in America, and religion and popular culture. He also co-edited 2019's collection of scholarly essays The Paranormal and Popular Culture: A Postmodern Religious Landscape. Here they talk about the thin line between hoax and sincere belief, how mystical and spiritual practices function in the information age, and how geography, history, and culture shape how the paranormal appears in various pockets of America. Tue, 21 Oct 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Darryl Caterine joins Kelly and John to talk about the religious dimensions of America's obsession with the paranormal It's spooky season, and to start off our spooky and spooky-adjacent episodes, Kelly and John talk to scholar Darryl Caterine, author of 2011's Haunted Ground: Journeys through a Paranormal America which explores the meaning of our nation’s fascination with paranormal phenomena through a series of thick descriptions and analyses of a Spiritualist camp in upstate New York, the Roswell UFO Festival in New Mexico, and an annual dowsing convention in Vermont. Caterine is a historian of religions whose research focuses on the intersections of religion, culture, and politics in the United States and parts of Latin America. His areas of academic interest include Latino/a religions, metaphysical/occult religions in America, and religion and popular culture. He also co-edited 2019's collection of scholarly essays The Paranormal and Popular Culture: A Postmodern Religious Landscape. Here they talk about the thin line between hoax and sincere belief, how mystical and spiritual practices function in the information age, and how geography, history, and culture shape how the paranormal appears in various pockets of America. It's spooky season, and to start off our spooky and spooky-adjacent episodes, Kelly and John talk to scholar Darryl Caterine, author of 2011's Haunted Ground: Journeys through a Paranormal America which explores the meaning of our nation’s fascination with paranormal phenomena through a series of thick descriptions and analyses of a Spiritualist camp in upstate New York, the Roswell UFO Festival in New Mexico, and an annual dowsing convention in Vermont.

Caterine is a historian of religions whose research focuses on the intersections of religion, culture, and politics in the United States and parts of Latin America. His areas of academic interest include Latino/a religions, metaphysical/occult religions in America, and religion and popular culture. He also co-edited 2019's collection of scholarly essays The Paranormal and Popular Culture: A Postmodern Religious Landscape.

Here they talk about the thin line between hoax and sincere belief, how mystical and spiritual practices function in the information age, and how geography, history, and culture shape how the paranormal appears in various pockets of America.

]]> 3805 RERELEASE: What really happened at Salem - with Kathleen M. Brown Due to some scheduling difficulties, we're pushing back this week's episode to next week and then going back-to-back Tuesdays. In the meantime, enjoy this episode from last Halloween with Kathleen M. Brown on the Salem Witch Trials _____________________________ The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness. But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception. So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens. To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights. Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association. Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.   Tue, 14 Oct 2025 12:33:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Due to some scheduling difficulties, we're pushing back this week's episode to next week and then going back-to-back Tuesdays. In the meantime, enjoy this episode from last Halloween with Kathleen M. Brown on the Salem Witch Trials _____________________________ The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness. But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception. So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens. To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights. Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association. Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.   Due to some scheduling difficulties, we're pushing back this week's episode to next week and then going back-to-back Tuesdays.

In the meantime, enjoy this episode from last Halloween with Kathleen M. Brown on the Salem Witch Trials

_____________________________


The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness.

But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception.

So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens.

To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights.

Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association.

Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.

 

]]> 3510 #055 – Taylor Swift: Christian TradWife Extraordinaire! https://www.cageclub.me/taylor-swift-trad-wife As soon as Taylor Swift announced her engagement to podcast host and occasional football player Travis Kelce, the weirdest weirdos on the Christian right burst into excitement over the possibility that Swift might finally, finally be morphing into one of them, urging her to "submit" to Kelce as a TradWife. It seems unlikely that a billionaire in her mid-30s like Taylor Swift will feel inclined to suddenly drop everything to bake bread, rear children, and spend her weekends Konmari-ing, but who knows?! This week, Kelly and John examine why, exactly, the right is particularly deranged when it comes to their Taylor Swift obsession, and why they feel a particular ownership over the world's most famous former Christmas Tree farm inhabitant. Also! We bid a sad farewell to friend of the pod and recurring POK supporting character Ryan Walters, address the troubling phenomenon of the Two Charlie Kirk Algorithms problem, and check in with which child murderers the world's most powerful Christian Nationalist and former weekend talk show host Pete Hegseth is honoring this week! Tue, 30 Sep 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk about the right's obsession with the idea that Taylor Swift is secretly, deep down one of them! As soon as Taylor Swift announced her engagement to podcast host and occasional football player Travis Kelce, the weirdest weirdos on the Christian right burst into excitement over the possibility that Swift might finally, finally be morphing into one of them, urging her to "submit" to Kelce as a TradWife. It seems unlikely that a billionaire in her mid-30s like Taylor Swift will feel inclined to suddenly drop everything to bake bread, rear children, and spend her weekends Konmari-ing, but who knows?! This week, Kelly and John examine why, exactly, the right is particularly deranged when it comes to their Taylor Swift obsession, and why they feel a particular ownership over the world's most famous former Christmas Tree farm inhabitant. Also! We bid a sad farewell to friend of the pod and recurring POK supporting character Ryan Walters, address the troubling phenomenon of the Two Charlie Kirk Algorithms problem, and check in with which child murderers the world's most powerful Christian Nationalist and former weekend talk show host Pete Hegseth is honoring this week!

As soon as Taylor Swift announced her engagement to podcast host and occasional football player Travis Kelce, the weirdest weirdos on the Christian right burst into excitement over the possibility that Swift might finally, finally be morphing into one of them, urging her to "submit" to Kelce as a TradWife.

It seems unlikely that a billionaire in her mid-30s like Taylor Swift will feel inclined to suddenly drop everything to bake bread, rear children, and spend her weekends Konmari-ing, but who knows?!

This week, Kelly and John examine why, exactly, the right is particularly deranged when it comes to their Taylor Swift obsession, and why they feel a particular ownership over the world's most famous former Christmas Tree farm inhabitant.

Also! We bid a sad farewell to friend of the pod and recurring POK supporting character Ryan Walters, address the troubling phenomenon of the Two Charlie Kirk Algorithms problem, and check in with which child murderers the world's most powerful Christian Nationalist and former weekend talk show host Pete Hegseth is honoring this week!

]]> 3219 RERELEASE (from 2/25 ): The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover with Lerone A. Martin Given recent events, we have decided not to release a new episode this week. Instead, given rising concerns about state retribution to political violence and the weaponization of law enforcement, we are re-releasing our conversation with Lerone A. Martin from February, in which he discusses his book The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover. _________________________________________________________ This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism. Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today. In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History. His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching. Tue, 16 Sep 2025 13:36:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Given recent events, we have decided not to release a new episode this week. Instead, given rising concerns about state retribution to political violence and the weaponization of law enforcement, we are re-releasing our conversation with Lerone A. Martin from February, in which he discusses his book The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover. _________________________________________________________ This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism. Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today. In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History. His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching. Given recent events, we have decided not to release a new episode this week. Instead, given rising concerns about state retribution to political violence and the weaponization of law enforcement, we are re-releasing our conversation with Lerone A. Martin from February, in which he discusses his book The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover.

_________________________________________________________

This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism.

Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University.

He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today.

In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History.

His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching.

]]> 3706 #054 - James Dobson (1936-2025) with Hilde Lovdal Stephens (SORRY ABOUT JOHN'S AUDIO!!) https://www.cageclub.me/james-dobson-hilde-lovdal-stephens/ James Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family and author of many popular books about "Christian parenting", died in late August at the age of 89. Dobson's death was celebrated by many ex-Evangelicals of a certain age who were raised in part or in total by Dobson's teaching and methods. He leaves behind a complicated and questionable legacy, including a generation of ex-Evangelicals who despise him and credit him for ruining their lives on the one hand, and an Evangelical movement that seems to have moved past him on the other. Joining Kelly and John to talk about the life and times of James Dobson is Hilde Løvdal Stephens, an associatie professor of American Studies at the University of Oslo. Her first book, Family Matters: James Dobson and Focus on the Family’s Crusade for the Christian Home, was published by the University of Alabama Press in 2019. You can find her on Bluesky @hildelstephens (NOTE: At about the 15 minute mark, John's audio goes crackly. We did our best to make it as listenable as possible! Our apologies to all. We'll do better next time!) Tue, 02 Sep 2025 17:15:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk to Hilde Løvdal Stephens, author of "Family Matters: James Dobson and Focus on the Family’s Crusade for the Christian Home" James Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family and author of many popular books about "Christian parenting", died in late August at the age of 89. Dobson's death was celebrated by many ex-Evangelicals of a certain age who were raised in part or in total by Dobson's teaching and methods. He leaves behind a complicated and questionable legacy, including a generation of ex-Evangelicals who despise him and credit him for ruining their lives on the one hand, and an Evangelical movement that seems to have moved past him on the other. Joining Kelly and John to talk about the life and times of James Dobson is Hilde Løvdal Stephens, an associatie professor of American Studies at the University of Oslo. Her first book, Family Matters: James Dobson and Focus on the Family’s Crusade for the Christian Home, was published by the University of Alabama Press in 2019. You can find her on Bluesky @hildelstephens (NOTE: At about the 15 minute mark, John's audio goes crackly. We did our best to make it as listenable as possible! Our apologies to all. We'll do better next time!) James Dobson, the founder of Focus on the Family and author of many popular books about "Christian parenting", died in late August at the age of 89.

Dobson's death was celebrated by many ex-Evangelicals of a certain age who were raised in part or in total by Dobson's teaching and methods.

He leaves behind a complicated and questionable legacy, including a generation of ex-Evangelicals who despise him and credit him for ruining their lives on the one hand, and an Evangelical movement that seems to have moved past him on the other.

Joining Kelly and John to talk about the life and times of James Dobson is Hilde Løvdal Stephens, an associatie professor of American Studies at the University of Oslo. Her first book, Family Matters: James Dobson and Focus on the Family’s Crusade for the Christian Home, was published by the University of Alabama Press in 2019.

You can find her on Bluesky @hildelstephens

(NOTE: At about the 15 minute mark, John's audio goes crackly. We did our best to make it as listenable as possible! Our apologies to all. We'll do better next time!)


]]> 3861 #053 – Heretic (2024) - with Shaily Patel https://www.cageclub.me/heretic-2024/ Heretic was released in theaters in 2024 and quickly developed something of a cult fandom, especially among religion nerds. Starring Hugh Grant in a rare villainous dark turn, Heretic tells to story of two young Mormon missionaries, Sister Paxton and Sister Barnes, who find themselves forced to defend their faith (and their lives) against the human manifestation of dickish online atheist bros. Whether of not Heretic is a good movie about religion is open to debate (and we take that up here), but unlike other religious horror, it pulls its thrills from a very unique source and its writers did their homework, painting faith and believers in three dimensions while not endorsing either, and showing the folly of hyper-rationality at the same time. Shaily Patel, one of our earliest guests, rejoins us to talk about a movie she describes as one she both loves and hates. You can find her on Bluesky @vox-magica. Tue, 19 Aug 2025 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Shaily Patel, one of our earliest guests, rejoins us to talk about 2024's "Heretic" Heretic was released in theaters in 2024 and quickly developed something of a cult fandom, especially among religion nerds. Starring Hugh Grant in a rare villainous dark turn, Heretic tells to story of two young Mormon missionaries, Sister Paxton and Sister Barnes, who find themselves forced to defend their faith (and their lives) against the human manifestation of dickish online atheist bros. Whether of not Heretic is a good movie about religion is open to debate (and we take that up here), but unlike other religious horror, it pulls its thrills from a very unique source and its writers did their homework, painting faith and believers in three dimensions while not endorsing either, and showing the folly of hyper-rationality at the same time. Shaily Patel, one of our earliest guests, rejoins us to talk about a movie she describes as one she both loves and hates. You can find her on Bluesky @vox-magica. Heretic was released in theaters in 2024 and quickly developed something of a cult fandom, especially among religion nerds.

Starring Hugh Grant in a rare villainous dark turn, Heretic tells to story of two young Mormon missionaries, Sister Paxton and Sister Barnes, who find themselves forced to defend their faith (and their lives) against the human manifestation of dickish online atheist bros.

Whether of not Heretic is a good movie about religion is open to debate (and we take that up here), but unlike other religious horror, it pulls its thrills from a very unique source and its writers did their homework, painting faith and believers in three dimensions while not endorsing either, and showing the folly of hyper-rationality at the same time.

Shaily Patel, one of our earliest guests, rejoins us to talk about a movie she describes as one she both loves and hates.

You can find her on Bluesky @vox-magica.

]]> 4937 #052 – At Last, A Woke Superman! https://www.cageclub.me/superman-ryan-walters-dhs/ We're back, and we're catching up on the things we missed this summer: Woke Superman, Ryan Walters' porn crisis, the DHS's weird fascism Twitter posts, and more! Kelly tells us about her surgery and recovery. John talks about his trip and getting a ridiculous amount of poison ivy on him. And they both talk about how Ryan Walters, the notorious Christian Nationalist in charge of Oklahoma schools, got caught with porn. Also, there's a new Woke Superman! James Gunn pisses off the right by deciding to make a Superman movie where Superman in an immigrant who cares about non-white people! It's very radical and disturbing! Plus: Epstein, and how it's now cool for you to convert the person in the next cubicle to Christianity if you work for the government. Links to the pieces discussed in this episode: Siri Dahl vs. Christian Nationalism With its ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Trump’s DHS is Leaning Sharply into ‘Blood and Soil’ Ideology DHS’s ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Highlights Danger of Innocence Myths of a White Christian America Tue, 05 Aug 2025 13:18:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks We're back from break with Woke Superman, the DHS, Ryan Walters, poison ivy, and surgery! We're back, and we're catching up on the things we missed this summer: Woke Superman, Ryan Walters' porn crisis, the DHS's weird fascism Twitter posts, and more! Kelly tells us about her surgery and recovery. John talks about his trip and getting a ridiculous amount of poison ivy on him. And they both talk about how Ryan Walters, the notorious Christian Nationalist in charge of Oklahoma schools, got caught with porn. Also, there's a new Woke Superman! James Gunn pisses off the right by deciding to make a Superman movie where Superman in an immigrant who cares about non-white people! It's very radical and disturbing! Plus: Epstein, and how it's now cool for you to convert the person in the next cubicle to Christianity if you work for the government. Links to the pieces discussed in this episode: Siri Dahl vs. Christian Nationalism With its ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Trump’s DHS is Leaning Sharply into ‘Blood and Soil’ Ideology DHS’s ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Highlights Danger of Innocence Myths of a White Christian America

We're back, and we're catching up on the things we missed this summer: Woke Superman, Ryan Walters' porn crisis, the DHS's weird fascism Twitter posts, and more!

Kelly tells us about her surgery and recovery. John talks about his trip and getting a ridiculous amount of poison ivy on him. And they both talk about how Ryan Walters, the notorious Christian Nationalist in charge of Oklahoma schools, got caught with porn.

Also, there's a new Woke Superman! James Gunn pisses off the right by deciding to make a Superman movie where Superman in an immigrant who cares about non-white people! It's very radical and disturbing!

Plus: Epstein, and how it's now cool for you to convert the person in the next cubicle to Christianity if you work for the government.

Links to the pieces discussed in this episode:

Siri Dahl vs. Christian Nationalism

With its ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Trump’s DHS is Leaning Sharply into ‘Blood and Soil’ Ideology

DHS’s ‘Homeland Heritage’ Campaign Highlights Danger of Innocence Myths of a White Christian America

]]> 3850 #051 – Acute Religious Experiences - with Richard Saville-Smith https://www.cageclub.me/richard-saville-smith This week, Richard Saville-Smith joins Kelly and John to talk about his book Acute Religious Experiences – Madness, Psychosis, and Religious Studies, which was published by Bloomsbury in 2023. Saville-Smith is an independent researcher who focuses on the intersection of madness, mental disorders, and acute religious experiences, from a mad studies perspective. He earned his PhD in Philosophy and Religious Studies from the University of Edinburgh in 2020. They discuss the relatively little-known academic field of mad studies - which seeks to destigmatize and depathologize the concept of madness - and how the fields of psychiatry and religious studies, often operating in conflict with one another, have distorted our understanding of the authenticity of acute religious experiences like the ones described in the lives of Joan of Arc or Jesus. Richard is on Bluesky @dranamorphosis Tue, 10 Jun 2025 16:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Richard Saville-Smith joins Kelly and John to discuss his book "Acute Religious Experiences – Madness, Psychosis, and Religious Studies" This week, Richard Saville-Smith joins Kelly and John to talk about his book Acute Religious Experiences – Madness, Psychosis, and Religious Studies, which was published by Bloomsbury in 2023. Saville-Smith is an independent researcher who focuses on the intersection of madness, mental disorders, and acute religious experiences, from a mad studies perspective. He earned his PhD in Philosophy and Religious Studies from the University of Edinburgh in 2020. They discuss the relatively little-known academic field of mad studies - which seeks to destigmatize and depathologize the concept of madness - and how the fields of psychiatry and religious studies, often operating in conflict with one another, have distorted our understanding of the authenticity of acute religious experiences like the ones described in the lives of Joan of Arc or Jesus. Richard is on Bluesky @dranamorphosis

This week, Richard Saville-Smith joins Kelly and John to talk about his book Acute Religious Experiences – Madness, Psychosis, and Religious Studies, which was published by Bloomsbury in 2023.

Saville-Smith is an independent researcher who focuses on the intersection of madness, mental disorders, and acute religious experiences, from a mad studies perspective. He earned his PhD in Philosophy and Religious Studies from the University of Edinburgh in 2020.

They discuss the relatively little-known academic field of mad studies - which seeks to destigmatize and depathologize the concept of madness - and how the fields of psychiatry and religious studies, often operating in conflict with one another, have distorted our understanding of the authenticity of acute religious experiences like the ones described in the lives of Joan of Arc or Jesus.

Richard is on Bluesky @dranamorphosis

]]> 3558 #050 - Severance - The Church of Keir https://www.cageclub.me/severance-religion/ Apple TV's Severance wrapped its long-awaited 2nd season recently and left us with more answers than questions. But some answers! We (sorta) know what Severance is really all about, and we (sorta, maybe) know what Lumon is up to now! So while we wait the ungodly eternity for Severance to return, John and Kelly invited scholar Niki Dolfi on to talk about the cults, religious allusions, identity, and goats. Niki Dolfi researches Christian Nationalism and white supremacy (among other things) and explores the intersection of religion and popular entertainment. She enjoys British television and is longtime Whovian Niki is on Bluesky @profdolfi Wed, 28 May 2025 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John are joined by Niki Dolfi to discuss identity, capitalism, and cultish devotion (and goats) in "Severance" Apple TV's Severance wrapped its long-awaited 2nd season recently and left us with more answers than questions. But some answers! We (sorta) know what Severance is really all about, and we (sorta, maybe) know what Lumon is up to now! So while we wait the ungodly eternity for Severance to return, John and Kelly invited scholar Niki Dolfi on to talk about the cults, religious allusions, identity, and goats. Niki Dolfi researches Christian Nationalism and white supremacy (among other things) and explores the intersection of religion and popular entertainment. She enjoys British television and is longtime Whovian Niki is on Bluesky @profdolfi

Apple TV's Severance wrapped its long-awaited 2nd season recently and left us with more answers than questions.

But some answers! We (sorta) know what Severance is really all about, and we (sorta, maybe) know what Lumon is up to now!

So while we wait the ungodly eternity for Severance to return, John and Kelly invited scholar Niki Dolfi on to talk about the cults, religious allusions, identity, and goats.

Niki Dolfi researches Christian Nationalism and white supremacy (among other things) and explores the intersection of religion and popular entertainment. She enjoys British television and is longtime Whovian

Niki is on Bluesky @profdolfi

]]> 4461 #049 – Our Pope Watch Has Ended https://www.cageclub.me/woke-marxist-pope/ Last week, the Catholic Church absolutely shook the world by electing Robert Prevost - an Augustinian from Chicago - Pope Leo XIV, making him the first ever American pope. Immediately, MAGA lost their collective minds, calling Leo XIV a woke Marxist and an anti-Trump liberal. Leo XIV's election was, without question, a statement by the Church directed squarely at MAGA and Donald Trump, but so many questions remain about what happens next. Kelly and John share their thoughts about the selection of Prevost, what it means that he chose the name Leo XIV, and why this way well serve as a check against Trump's fascism and persecution of immigrant communities. They also take a look at some of the findings from the Public Religion Research Institute's findings from their survey of Americans following Trump's first 100 days. John's thoughts on Leo XIV or available on our blog. The PRRI surveys we discuss on the episode can be found here and here Tue, 13 May 2025 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk all the Pope news, including the MAGA freakout over Leo XIV, and what this all means for the future of the Catholic Church Last week, the Catholic Church absolutely shook the world by electing Robert Prevost - an Augustinian from Chicago - Pope Leo XIV, making him the first ever American pope. Immediately, MAGA lost their collective minds, calling Leo XIV a woke Marxist and an anti-Trump liberal. Leo XIV's election was, without question, a statement by the Church directed squarely at MAGA and Donald Trump, but so many questions remain about what happens next. Kelly and John share their thoughts about the selection of Prevost, what it means that he chose the name Leo XIV, and why this way well serve as a check against Trump's fascism and persecution of immigrant communities. They also take a look at some of the findings from the Public Religion Research Institute's findings from their survey of Americans following Trump's first 100 days. John's thoughts on Leo XIV or available on our blog. The PRRI surveys we discuss on the episode can be found here and here

Last week, the Catholic Church absolutely shook the world by electing Robert Prevost - an Augustinian from Chicago - Pope Leo XIV, making him the first ever American pope.

Immediately, MAGA lost their collective minds, calling Leo XIV a woke Marxist and an anti-Trump liberal.

Leo XIV's election was, without question, a statement by the Church directed squarely at MAGA and Donald Trump, but so many questions remain about what happens next.

Kelly and John share their thoughts about the selection of Prevost, what it means that he chose the name Leo XIV, and why this way well serve as a check against Trump's fascism and persecution of immigrant communities.

They also take a look at some of the findings from the Public Religion Research Institute's findings from their survey of Americans following Trump's first 100 days.

John's thoughts on Leo XIV or available on our blog.

The PRRI surveys we discuss on the episode can be found here and here

]]> 4014 #048 – Annika Brockschmidt https://www.cageclub.me/annika-brockschmidt/ This week, author and journalist Annika Brockschmidt joins John to talk about the perception of the American Christian Right in Europe, the possibly intentional downplaying of Christian Nationalism in Trump 2.0, and Pete Hegseth's tattoos. Annika Brockschmidt studied History, German Studies, and War and Conflict Studies in Heidelberg, Durham and Potsdam. She is a freelance journalist and author, Worked for the capital city studio of German public-broadcaster ZDF and produces the podcasts “Kreuz und Flagge” And “Feminist Shelf Control”. She is senior correspondent for Religion Dispatches and writes for example for German daily newspaper Tagesspiegel, German online magazine Zeit Online, Frankfurt-based daily Frankfurter Rundschau, Swiss online magazine Republik, and German cross-regional weekly Der Freitag. Her Book “Amerikas Gotteskrieger. Über die Macht der Religiösen Rechten in den USA” (American Holy Warriors. The Power of the Religious Right in the USA) was a bestseller in 2021. Annika is on Bluesky @ardenthistorian.bsky.social   Tue, 29 Apr 2025 12:20:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks John talks about the perception of the American Christian Right in Europe and Pete Hegseth's tattoos with historian Annika Brockschmidt This week, author and journalist Annika Brockschmidt joins John to talk about the perception of the American Christian Right in Europe, the possibly intentional downplaying of Christian Nationalism in Trump 2.0, and Pete Hegseth's tattoos. Annika Brockschmidt studied History, German Studies, and War and Conflict Studies in Heidelberg, Durham and Potsdam. She is a freelance journalist and author, Worked for the capital city studio of German public-broadcaster ZDF and produces the podcasts “Kreuz und Flagge” And “Feminist Shelf Control”. She is senior correspondent for Religion Dispatches and writes for example for German daily newspaper Tagesspiegel, German online magazine Zeit Online, Frankfurt-based daily Frankfurter Rundschau, Swiss online magazine Republik, and German cross-regional weekly Der Freitag. Her Book “Amerikas Gotteskrieger. Über die Macht der Religiösen Rechten in den USA” (American Holy Warriors. The Power of the Religious Right in the USA) was a bestseller in 2021. Annika is on Bluesky @ardenthistorian.bsky.social   This week, author and journalist Annika Brockschmidt joins John to talk about the perception of the American Christian Right in Europe, the possibly intentional downplaying of Christian Nationalism in Trump 2.0, and Pete Hegseth's tattoos.

Annika Brockschmidt studied History, German Studies, and War and Conflict Studies in Heidelberg, Durham and Potsdam. She is a freelance journalist and author, Worked for the capital city studio of German public-broadcaster ZDF and produces the podcasts “Kreuz und Flagge” And “Feminist Shelf Control”.

She is senior correspondent for Religion Dispatches and writes for example for German daily newspaper Tagesspiegel, German online magazine Zeit Online, Frankfurt-based daily Frankfurter Rundschau, Swiss online magazine Republik, and German cross-regional weekly Der Freitag.

Her Book “Amerikas Gotteskrieger. Über die Macht der Religiösen Rechten in den USA” (American Holy Warriors. The Power of the Religious Right in the USA) was a bestseller in 2021.

Annika is on Bluesky @ardenthistorian.bsky.social

 


]]> 3699 #047 – Rethinking "Lord of the Flies" in the age of MAGA https://www.cageclub.me/lord-of-the-flies-maga/ William Golding's 1952 novel Lord of the Flies is one of those books most of us of a certain age were forced to read in high school and pretty much universally hated. Often presented as a bleak meditation on human nature, Lord of the Flies certainly isn't that. But why were its real themes - the destructive nature of colonialism, the inconsistency between the ideals of democratic nations and their actual values, and how and why fascists tend to rise the top - so routinely overlooked for so long? Here, we suggest it's because Lord of the Flies is a book so obvious and unsparing in its symbolism it can really only be appreciated when its themes are playing out in front of us. As they are right now. With abandon. In this episode we also talk about how the Showtime series Yellowjackets helps illuminate why Lord of the Flies needs to be understood allegorically, as well as how fascism is depicted in another popular dystopian work involving teenagers killing each other, The Hunger Games. John's essay on Lord of the Flies can be found on our blog here: Lord of the Flies is more relevant now than ever   Tue, 15 Apr 2025 15:58:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John discuss why people maybe get "Lord of the Flies" all wrong, and why what it's REALLY about matters a great deal right now. William Golding's 1952 novel Lord of the Flies is one of those books most of us of a certain age were forced to read in high school and pretty much universally hated. Often presented as a bleak meditation on human nature, Lord of the Flies certainly isn't that. But why were its real themes - the destructive nature of colonialism, the inconsistency between the ideals of democratic nations and their actual values, and how and why fascists tend to rise the top - so routinely overlooked for so long? Here, we suggest it's because Lord of the Flies is a book so obvious and unsparing in its symbolism it can really only be appreciated when its themes are playing out in front of us. As they are right now. With abandon. In this episode we also talk about how the Showtime series Yellowjackets helps illuminate why Lord of the Flies needs to be understood allegorically, as well as how fascism is depicted in another popular dystopian work involving teenagers killing each other, The Hunger Games. John's essay on Lord of the Flies can be found on our blog here: Lord of the Flies is more relevant now than ever   William Golding's 1952 novel Lord of the Flies is one of those books most of us of a certain age were forced to read in high school and pretty much universally hated.

Often presented as a bleak meditation on human nature, Lord of the Flies certainly isn't that. But why were its real themes - the destructive nature of colonialism, the inconsistency between the ideals of democratic nations and their actual values, and how and why fascists tend to rise the top - so routinely overlooked for so long?

Here, we suggest it's because Lord of the Flies is a book so obvious and unsparing in its symbolism it can really only be appreciated when its themes are playing out in front of us. As they are right now. With abandon.

In this episode we also talk about how the Showtime series Yellowjackets helps illuminate why Lord of the Flies needs to be understood allegorically, as well as how fascism is depicted in another popular dystopian work involving teenagers killing each other, The Hunger Games.

John's essay on Lord of the Flies can be found on our blog here: Lord of the Flies is more relevant now than ever

 

]]> 3716 #046 – The MAGA Attack on Higher Education https://www.cageclub.me/attack-on-higher-education Higher education is under attack in a way few saw coming. Maybe they should have, and maybe that's part of the problem. Institutions of higher education have been a laser target of the Trump administration's authoritarian project in its first two months. And while authoritarians have long prioritized going after and dismantling academic institutes, this strategy also includes the cynical use of major wedge issues (namely Israel/Palestine) and the manipulation of emotionally-charged, religiously-oriented terminology like "antisemitism" There is, as they say, a lot going on here, and we can't get to it all in one episode, but we thought it was important to take a broad look at what is going on in higher education, where we have gone wrong in our approach to that's made it so vulnerable to attack, and some of the surprising ways religious interests are shaping the outcomes. Tue, 01 Apr 2025 14:47:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John discuss the attack on higher education, the cynical manipulation of antisemitism, and the complicated role religion is playing Higher education is under attack in a way few saw coming. Maybe they should have, and maybe that's part of the problem. Institutions of higher education have been a laser target of the Trump administration's authoritarian project in its first two months. And while authoritarians have long prioritized going after and dismantling academic institutes, this strategy also includes the cynical use of major wedge issues (namely Israel/Palestine) and the manipulation of emotionally-charged, religiously-oriented terminology like "antisemitism" There is, as they say, a lot going on here, and we can't get to it all in one episode, but we thought it was important to take a broad look at what is going on in higher education, where we have gone wrong in our approach to that's made it so vulnerable to attack, and some of the surprising ways religious interests are shaping the outcomes. Higher education is under attack in a way few saw coming.

Maybe they should have, and maybe that's part of the problem.

Institutions of higher education have been a laser target of the Trump administration's authoritarian project in its first two months. And while authoritarians have long prioritized going after and dismantling academic institutes, this strategy also includes the cynical use of major wedge issues (namely Israel/Palestine) and the manipulation of emotionally-charged, religiously-oriented terminology like "antisemitism"

There is, as they say, a lot going on here, and we can't get to it all in one episode, but we thought it was important to take a broad look at what is going on in higher education, where we have gone wrong in our approach to that's made it so vulnerable to attack, and some of the surprising ways religious interests are shaping the outcomes.

]]> 3454 #045 – Roko's Basilisk, Pope Watch 2025, and Paula White https://www.cageclub.me/rokos-basilisk/ Before you listen to today's episode, you should know that knowing about Roko's Basilisk can doom you forever. Still here? Great. This week, John and Kelly explore a few of the religion stories that have surfaced in recent weeks, including what happens and if when Pope Francis dies soon, and the evangelical backlash of Trump appointing Paula White as the White House Faith officer.  Then, we take on Roko's Basilisk, an unhinged thought experiment about the moral imperative of helping to develop super-intelligent A.I. that, as it happens, also helps explain Elon Musk's zealous, eugenicist project to dismantle the federal government. We promise it matters! Tue, 04 Mar 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John Roko’s Basilisk, the techbro thought experiment underlying Elon Musk’s zealous insanity, plus Pope news and Paula White Before you listen to today's episode, you should know that knowing about Roko's Basilisk can doom you forever. Still here? Great. This week, John and Kelly explore a few of the religion stories that have surfaced in recent weeks, including what happens and if when Pope Francis dies soon, and the evangelical backlash of Trump appointing Paula White as the White House Faith officer.  Then, we take on Roko's Basilisk, an unhinged thought experiment about the moral imperative of helping to develop super-intelligent A.I. that, as it happens, also helps explain Elon Musk's zealous, eugenicist project to dismantle the federal government. We promise it matters! Before you listen to today's episode, you should know that knowing about Roko's Basilisk can doom you forever.

Still here? Great.

This week, John and Kelly explore a few of the religion stories that have surfaced in recent weeks, including what happens and if when Pope Francis dies soon, and the evangelical backlash of Trump appointing Paula White as the White House Faith officer. 

Then, we take on Roko's Basilisk, an unhinged thought experiment about the moral imperative of helping to develop super-intelligent A.I. that, as it happens, also helps explain Elon Musk's zealous, eugenicist project to dismantle the federal government. We promise it matters!

]]> 3367 (Edited Reissue) #024 - Simulation Theory, or Young Earth Creationism for Atheists We recorded this about a year ago, for the 25th anniversary of the release of THE MATRIX. But since Elon Musk now controls the country, we're republishing an edited-down version because it's important to know how Musk thinks. Next episode, we'll be talking about a number of the other beliefs that shape Musk's worldview, among them Roko's Basilisk, so this episode is good preparation for that conversation. ************************************************************************************ In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/ Thu, 27 Feb 2025 16:01:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks We recorded this about a year ago, for the 25th anniversary of the release of THE MATRIX. But since Elon Musk now controls the country, we're republishing an edited-down version because it's important to know how Musk thinks. Next episode, we'll be talking about a number of the other beliefs that shape Musk's worldview, among them Roko's Basilisk, so this episode is good preparation for that conversation. ************************************************************************************ In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/ We recorded this about a year ago, for the 25th anniversary of the release of THE MATRIX.


But since Elon Musk now controls the country, we're republishing an edited-down version because it's important to know how Musk thinks.


Next episode, we'll be talking about a number of the other beliefs that shape Musk's worldview, among them Roko's Basilisk, so this episode is good preparation for that conversation.


************************************************************************************


In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment.

But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper.

In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory?

In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question.

Sources

https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf

https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/

https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/

]]> 2866 Chris Kluwe - (Republished from "Hard to Believe" - April, 2021) https://www.cageclub.me/chriskluwe/ This is a republished episode from John's former podcast Hard to Believe featuring an interview with Chris Kluwe In light Kluwe making national news with his recent act of anti-MAGA civil disobedience, we decided to republish an interview John conducted with Kluwe in 2021, in which he describes, among other things, how he came to be an activist and advocate for justice causes. Here is the original descriptions of that episode: ******************************************************************** Chris Kluwe was an accomplished NFL punter with the Minnesota Vikings. Then he decided to stand up for the rights of other human beings. Now he's a science fiction novelist. And a lot has happened in between. His first science fiction novel, Otaku, was just released in paperback, so he and John sat across the internet from each other to talk about where he gets his sense of social responsibility, his evolution as a writer, and how it feels to be the only person in American history to have used the term "lustful cockmonster" in a letter to a sitting elected official. Find out where to buy Otaku from somewhere other than Amazon here You can try not to get blocked by Chris by following him on Twitter @ChrisWarcraft Clips from the beginning of this episode come from: CNN, MSNBC, The Young Turks, The Dan Patrick Show, Geek and Sundry, Larry King Now, and Conan The outro is a cover of "Science Fiction / Double Feature" by Tall Dark Whimsy Fri, 21 Feb 2025 13:18:00 -0000 Chris Kluwe - On standing up for others, being a nerd, and his first science fiction novel "Otaku" full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Christ Kluwe talks being banned from the NFL on account of being a decent person, his love of books. his writing process, and his sci-fi novel "Otaku" This is a republished episode from John's former podcast Hard to Believe featuring an interview with Chris Kluwe In light Kluwe making national news with his recent act of anti-MAGA civil disobedience, we decided to republish an interview John conducted with Kluwe in 2021, in which he describes, among other things, how he came to be an activist and advocate for justice causes. Here is the original descriptions of that episode: ******************************************************************** Chris Kluwe was an accomplished NFL punter with the Minnesota Vikings. Then he decided to stand up for the rights of other human beings. Now he's a science fiction novelist. And a lot has happened in between. His first science fiction novel, Otaku, was just released in paperback, so he and John sat across the internet from each other to talk about where he gets his sense of social responsibility, his evolution as a writer, and how it feels to be the only person in American history to have used the term "lustful cockmonster" in a letter to a sitting elected official. Find out where to buy Otaku from somewhere other than Amazon here You can try not to get blocked by Chris by following him on Twitter @ChrisWarcraft Clips from the beginning of this episode come from: CNN, MSNBC, The Young Turks, The Dan Patrick Show, Geek and Sundry, Larry King Now, and Conan The outro is a cover of "Science Fiction / Double Feature" by Tall Dark Whimsy This is a republished episode from John's former podcast Hard to Believe featuring an interview with Chris Kluwe


In light Kluwe making national news with his recent act of anti-MAGA civil disobedience, we decided to republish an interview John conducted with Kluwe in 2021, in which he describes, among other things, how he came to be an activist and advocate for justice causes.


Here is the original descriptions of that episode:

********************************************************************


Chris Kluwe was an accomplished NFL punter with the Minnesota Vikings. Then he decided to stand up for the rights of other human beings. Now he's a science fiction novelist. And a lot has happened in between. His first science fiction novel, Otaku, was just released in paperback, so he and John sat across the internet from each other to talk about where he gets his sense of social responsibility, his evolution as a writer, and how it feels to be the only person in American history to have used the term "lustful cockmonster" in a letter to a sitting elected official.

Find out where to buy Otaku from somewhere other than Amazon here

You can try not to get blocked by Chris by following him on Twitter @ChrisWarcraft

Clips from the beginning of this episode come from:

CNN, MSNBC, The Young Turks, The Dan Patrick Show, Geek and Sundry, Larry King Now, and Conan

The outro is a cover of "Science Fiction / Double Feature" by Tall Dark Whimsy

]]> 3667 #044 – The Lord of the Right: Tolkien, Fascism, and Race - with Marika Rose https://www.cageclub.me/tolkein-fascism/ What's the deal with the far-right's obsession with Tolkien? Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is, ostensibly, a story of different races coming together to defeat a shared enemy - one that intends to shroud the world in darkness and despair. Or...is it? If you ask billionaire fascist Peter Thiel - whose surveillance company Palantir is named for an evil crystal ball in Lord of the Rings - the answer isn't so simple. Nor is it for self-proclaimed "Tolkien guy" and Thiel protege JD Vance. Is the fascism-leaning right-wing and the TradCath movement justified in declaring Tolkien one of their own? And even if they're not, can we reconcile the racism inherent in Lord of the Rings with its apparent message of fellowship and perseverance in the face of an existential threat? Those questions have kept Tolkien scholars busy for 80 years, but we talked through some of them with scholar Marika Rose. You can find out more about Marika as well as links to some of the sources for this episode below: Marika Rose Marika on Bluesky How Lord of the Rings Shaped JD Vance’s Politics Revisiting Race in Tolkien’s Legendarium: Constructing Cultures and Ideologies in an Imaginary World How The Lord of the Rings became a symbol for Italy's far-right ‘The Lord of the Rings’ Is Not the Far Right’s Playground Tolkien and Race Tue, 18 Feb 2025 09:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Scholar Marika Rose joins Kelly and John to talk about why the far-right and religious zealots love Tolkien, and whether that's justified. What's the deal with the far-right's obsession with Tolkien? Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is, ostensibly, a story of different races coming together to defeat a shared enemy - one that intends to shroud the world in darkness and despair. Or...is it? If you ask billionaire fascist Peter Thiel - whose surveillance company Palantir is named for an evil crystal ball in Lord of the Rings - the answer isn't so simple. Nor is it for self-proclaimed "Tolkien guy" and Thiel protege JD Vance. Is the fascism-leaning right-wing and the TradCath movement justified in declaring Tolkien one of their own? And even if they're not, can we reconcile the racism inherent in Lord of the Rings with its apparent message of fellowship and perseverance in the face of an existential threat? Those questions have kept Tolkien scholars busy for 80 years, but we talked through some of them with scholar Marika Rose. You can find out more about Marika as well as links to some of the sources for this episode below: Marika Rose Marika on Bluesky How Lord of the Rings Shaped JD Vance’s Politics Revisiting Race in Tolkien’s Legendarium: Constructing Cultures and Ideologies in an Imaginary World How The Lord of the Rings became a symbol for Italy's far-right ‘The Lord of the Rings’ Is Not the Far Right’s Playground Tolkien and Race What's the deal with the far-right's obsession with Tolkien?

Tolkien's Lord of the Rings is, ostensibly, a story of different races coming together to defeat a shared enemy - one that intends to shroud the world in darkness and despair.

Or...is it?

If you ask billionaire fascist Peter Thiel - whose surveillance company Palantir is named for an evil crystal ball in Lord of the Rings - the answer isn't so simple. Nor is it for self-proclaimed "Tolkien guy" and Thiel protege JD Vance.

Is the fascism-leaning right-wing and the TradCath movement justified in declaring Tolkien one of their own? And even if they're not, can we reconcile the racism inherent in Lord of the Rings with its apparent message of fellowship and perseverance in the face of an existential threat? Those questions have kept Tolkien scholars busy for 80 years, but we talked through some of them with scholar Marika Rose.

You can find out more about Marika as well as links to some of the sources for this episode below:

Marika Rose

Marika on Bluesky

How Lord of the Rings Shaped JD Vance’s Politics

Revisiting Race in Tolkien’s Legendarium: Constructing Cultures and Ideologies in an Imaginary World

How The Lord of the Rings became a symbol for Italy's far-right

‘The Lord of the Rings’ Is Not the Far Right’s Playground

Tolkien and Race

]]> 4204 #043 – The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover with Lerone A. Martin https://www.cageclub.me/gospel-of-j-edgar-hoover/ This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism. Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today. In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History. His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching. Tue, 04 Feb 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Scholar and author Lerone A. Martin joins Kelly and John to discuss his acclaimed book "The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover" This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism. Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University. He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today. In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History. His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching. This week, Kelly and John are joined by Lerone A. Martin to discuss his unfortunately timely and prescient book, The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover: How the FBI Aided and Abetted the Rise of White Christian Nationalism.

Martin is the Martin Luther King, Jr., Centennial Professor in Religious Studies, African & African American Studies, and The Nina C. Crocker Faculty Scholar. He also serves as the Director of the Martin Luther King, Jr. Research and Education Institute at Stanford University.

He's is an award-winning author. The Gospel of J. Edgar Hoover was published in February 2023 by Princeton University Press. The book has garnered praise from numerous publications including The Nation, Foreign Affairs, The Guardian, Publisher’s Weekly, and History Today.

In 2014 he published, Preaching on Wax: The Phonograph and the Making of Modern African American Religion. That book received the 2015 first book award by the American Society of Church History.

His commentary and writing have been featured on The NBC Today Show, The History Channel, PBS, CSPAN, and NPR, as well as in The New York Times, Boston Globe, CNN.com, and the Atlanta Journal-Constitution. He currently serves as an advisor on the upcoming PBS documentary series The History of Gospel Music & Preaching.

]]> 3706 #042 – Jason Kirk on "Hell Is A World Without You" https://www.cageclub.me/hell-is-a-world-without-you/ Writer and journalist Jason Kirk's debut novel, Hell is a World Without You, was released in December of 2023 to wide acclaim. Hell is a World Without You tells the story of Isaac Siena, an Evangelical teenager living in Pennsylvania at the turn of the millennium who struggles with the dual-challenges of adolescence and his faith. The novel is drawn from elements of Kirk's own life and is set against the backdrop of an America in the wake of Y2K and on the verge of 9/11. Kirk is a senior editor for The Athletic and cohosts the podcast Vacation Bible School with his wife Emily. He joined Kelly and John to talk about drawing from his own experiences to write a novel that would speak to people both within and without the youth evangelical experience, his faith journey, and who is going to win the Super Bowl (it's the Bills, apparently - take it to the bank). You can learn more about him and read some of his work at https://www.jasonkirk.fyi/ Tue, 21 Jan 2025 09:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Jason Kirk joins Kelly and John to talk about his evangelical youth coming-of-age novel "Hell Is A World Without You" Writer and journalist Jason Kirk's debut novel, Hell is a World Without You, was released in December of 2023 to wide acclaim. Hell is a World Without You tells the story of Isaac Siena, an Evangelical teenager living in Pennsylvania at the turn of the millennium who struggles with the dual-challenges of adolescence and his faith. The novel is drawn from elements of Kirk's own life and is set against the backdrop of an America in the wake of Y2K and on the verge of 9/11. Kirk is a senior editor for The Athletic and cohosts the podcast Vacation Bible School with his wife Emily. He joined Kelly and John to talk about drawing from his own experiences to write a novel that would speak to people both within and without the youth evangelical experience, his faith journey, and who is going to win the Super Bowl (it's the Bills, apparently - take it to the bank). You can learn more about him and read some of his work at https://www.jasonkirk.fyi/ Writer and journalist Jason Kirk's debut novel, Hell is a World Without You, was released in December of 2023 to wide acclaim.

Hell is a World Without You tells the story of Isaac Siena, an Evangelical teenager living in Pennsylvania at the turn of the millennium who struggles with the dual-challenges of adolescence and his faith. The novel is drawn from elements of Kirk's own life and is set against the backdrop of an America in the wake of Y2K and on the verge of 9/11.

Kirk is a senior editor for The Athletic and cohosts the podcast Vacation Bible School with his wife Emily.

He joined Kelly and John to talk about drawing from his own experiences to write a novel that would speak to people both within and without the youth evangelical experience, his faith journey, and who is going to win the Super Bowl (it's the Bills, apparently - take it to the bank).

You can learn more about him and read some of his work at https://www.jasonkirk.fyi/

]]> 4220 #041 – A Load of Comstock - The life and times of Anthony Comstock https://www.cageclub.me/anthony-comstock/ Anthony Comstock might be the most significant American that it's entirely possible you've never heard of. A zealous Christian crusader against so-called "obscenity" in the late 19th century, he is the namesake of the Comstock Act, the interstate commerce law that the Heritage Foundation plans to use to curb access to abortion pills and pornography. Born in Connecticut in the mid-1800s, Anthony Comstock grew up with regressive Victorian ideals in a puritanical New England household. His self-loathing and religious zeal lead to a life of bullying and persecuting countless men and (more often) women, driving many to suicide and tallying up hundreds of years in prison sentences. The radical social dynamics at the time in many ways echo our current culture wars, and since Anthony Comstock is about to play a major role in American life again, we thought it would be useful to talk a bit about his life and times. Much of the information for this episode was drawn from Amy Sohn's book The Man Who Hated Women: Sex, Censorship, and Civil Liberties in the Gilded Age Also helpful were the biography of Comstock from the Smithsonian's National Postal Museum and TheFire.org's Why the 1873 Comstock Act still matters today Tue, 07 Jan 2025 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks John tells Kelly all about Anthony Comstock, the Christian zealot and giant weirdo whose ghost is about to haunt your life Anthony Comstock might be the most significant American that it's entirely possible you've never heard of. A zealous Christian crusader against so-called "obscenity" in the late 19th century, he is the namesake of the Comstock Act, the interstate commerce law that the Heritage Foundation plans to use to curb access to abortion pills and pornography. Born in Connecticut in the mid-1800s, Anthony Comstock grew up with regressive Victorian ideals in a puritanical New England household. His self-loathing and religious zeal lead to a life of bullying and persecuting countless men and (more often) women, driving many to suicide and tallying up hundreds of years in prison sentences. The radical social dynamics at the time in many ways echo our current culture wars, and since Anthony Comstock is about to play a major role in American life again, we thought it would be useful to talk a bit about his life and times. Much of the information for this episode was drawn from Amy Sohn's book The Man Who Hated Women: Sex, Censorship, and Civil Liberties in the Gilded Age Also helpful were the biography of Comstock from the Smithsonian's National Postal Museum and TheFire.org's Why the 1873 Comstock Act still matters today Anthony Comstock might be the most significant American that it's entirely possible you've never heard of. A zealous Christian crusader against so-called "obscenity" in the late 19th century, he is the namesake of the Comstock Act, the interstate commerce law that the Heritage Foundation plans to use to curb access to abortion pills and pornography.

Born in Connecticut in the mid-1800s, Anthony Comstock grew up with regressive Victorian ideals in a puritanical New England household. His self-loathing and religious zeal lead to a life of bullying and persecuting countless men and (more often) women, driving many to suicide and tallying up hundreds of years in prison sentences.

The radical social dynamics at the time in many ways echo our current culture wars, and since Anthony Comstock is about to play a major role in American life again, we thought it would be useful to talk a bit about his life and times.

Much of the information for this episode was drawn from Amy Sohn's book The Man Who Hated Women: Sex, Censorship, and Civil Liberties in the Gilded Age

Also helpful were the biography of Comstock from the Smithsonian's National Postal Museum

and TheFire.org's Why the 1873 Comstock Act still matters today

]]> 4937 #040 – Did Dickens "Invent" Christmas? - with Kristen Hanley Cardozo https://www.cageclub.me/dickens-christmas/ The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today. There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him. So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist Kristen Hanley Cardozo to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season. Tue, 24 Dec 2024 09:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Victorianist Kristen Hanley Cardozo shares some of her expertise as we talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season. The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today. There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him. So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist Kristen Hanley Cardozo to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season. The 2017 film The Man Who Invented Christmas, starring human treasure Dan Stevens as Charles Dickens, is a lovely bit of an anachronistic historical revisionism (though, to be fair, it gets a number of things right both in fact and in, pardon the pun, spirit). But it also perpetuates an increasingly popular myth - that Charles Dickens...well...invented Christmas. At least, that is, Christmas as we think of it today.

There are a lot of reasons why this seems true, and, yes, Dicken's A Christmas Carol played an enormous role in a Victorian revival and redefining of Christmas - but that revival was happening with him or without him.

So we decided to take a closer look at Victorian society in the 1940s and exam how religious - or not - Dickens and A Christmas Carol actually were. Kelly and John invited Victorianist Kristen Hanley Cardozo to share some of her expertise and talk about spirits, Scrooges, and the real reasons for the season.

]]> 4064 RERELEASE (11/21/23) - Unraveling the Thanksgiving Myth - with Dr. David J. Silverman (Rerelease from 2023) What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth Thu, 28 Nov 2024 14:08:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. David J. Silverman helps us unpack the (nonsense, ahistorical) myth that lies at the heart of Thanksgiving. (Rerelease from 2023) What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth (Rerelease from 2023)


What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you?

Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one.

But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core.

And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots.

It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population.

To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us.

You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon

Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth

]]> 5118 #039 – Breath of Fire: Conspirituality, Fraud, and the Prosperity Dharma https://www.cageclub.me/breath-of-fire/ Directed by first time documentary directors Haley Pappas and Smiley Stevens, Breath of Fire was released on MAX in October as a four-part documentary series. Breath of Fire is based on the 2021 Vanity Fair piece The Second Coming of Guru Jagat by Hayley Phelan, who also appears in and executive produced the series. It tells the story of Kundalini yoga practitioner turned de facto cult leader/professional grifter Katie Griggs, known to her followers as Guru Jagat. Throughout its four hours, Breath of Fire touches on some recurring themes and questions, such as the power of religious fraud, abuse, orientalism, and what exactly it is that people rally want from religion. This week, Kelly and John try to unpack its often enlightening, often disturbing implications. Tue, 26 Nov 2024 09:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John discuss the HBO documentary series "Breath of Fire" about the fraud and abuse that underpinned the Kundalini Yoga movement. Directed by first time documentary directors Haley Pappas and Smiley Stevens, Breath of Fire was released on MAX in October as a four-part documentary series. Breath of Fire is based on the 2021 Vanity Fair piece The Second Coming of Guru Jagat by Hayley Phelan, who also appears in and executive produced the series. It tells the story of Kundalini yoga practitioner turned de facto cult leader/professional grifter Katie Griggs, known to her followers as Guru Jagat. Throughout its four hours, Breath of Fire touches on some recurring themes and questions, such as the power of religious fraud, abuse, orientalism, and what exactly it is that people rally want from religion. This week, Kelly and John try to unpack its often enlightening, often disturbing implications. Directed by first time documentary directors Haley Pappas and Smiley Stevens, Breath of Fire was released on MAX in October as a four-part documentary series.

Breath of Fire is based on the 2021 Vanity Fair piece The Second Coming of Guru Jagat by Hayley Phelan, who also appears in and executive produced the series.

It tells the story of Kundalini yoga practitioner turned de facto cult leader/professional grifter Katie Griggs, known to her followers as Guru Jagat. Throughout its four hours, Breath of Fire touches on some recurring themes and questions, such as the power of religious fraud, abuse, orientalism, and what exactly it is that people rally want from religion.

This week, Kelly and John try to unpack its often enlightening, often disturbing implications.

]]> 4103 #038 – Welp...what now? - with Andrew Tobolowsky https://www.cageclub.me/2024-election-analysis/ We'll just cut to the chase - this week sucked and the next four years are going to be very dark and very difficult. But we're not here just to rage and doomcast. This Kelly and John were joined by fellow religion scholar Andrew Tobolowsky to try to provide some perspective on what's ahead, what the fight is going to be, the role Project 2025 will and won't play, and why the more likely challenge will be living through a chaotic nightmare as opposed to a Christian Nationalist dystopia. Andrew is on BlueSky at @andytobo.bsky.social Mon, 11 Nov 2024 13:02:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Andrew Tobolowsky joins us to talk through our thoughts, hopes, and fears following the election. We'll just cut to the chase - this week sucked and the next four years are going to be very dark and very difficult. But we're not here just to rage and doomcast. This Kelly and John were joined by fellow religion scholar Andrew Tobolowsky to try to provide some perspective on what's ahead, what the fight is going to be, the role Project 2025 will and won't play, and why the more likely challenge will be living through a chaotic nightmare as opposed to a Christian Nationalist dystopia. Andrew is on BlueSky at @andytobo.bsky.social We'll just cut to the chase - this week sucked and the next four years are going to be very dark and very difficult.

But we're not here just to rage and doomcast. This Kelly and John were joined by fellow religion scholar Andrew Tobolowsky to try to provide some perspective on what's ahead, what the fight is going to be, the role Project 2025 will and won't play, and why the more likely challenge will be living through a chaotic nightmare as opposed to a Christian Nationalist dystopia.

Andrew is on BlueSky at @andytobo.bsky.social

]]> 4203 #037 – What really happened at Salem - with Kathleen M. Brown https://www.cageclub.me/salem-witch-trials/ The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness. But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception. So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens. To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights. Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association. Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.   Tue, 29 Oct 2024 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Historian Kathleen M. Brown joins Kelly and John to shine a light on the facts and fictions of the Salem Witch Trials The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness. But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception. So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens. To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights. Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association. Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.   The Salem Witch Trials may well be the single most notorious and iconic event of America's colonial period. Every Halloween, Salem, Massachusetts, hosts untold thousands of tourists who revel in the city's occult history and reputation as America's haunted capital of spookiness.

But as well-known as the Salem Witch Trials are, they remain a hotbed of historical inaccuracy and misconception.

So what exactly happened? How did a sleepy, growing Massachusetts town become the epicenter of witch hysteria? Did everyone go insane, or were the Salem Witch Trials perfectly consistent with the worldview of Salem's citizens.

To help us clear this up, Kelly and John asked University of Pennsylvania history professor Kathleen M. Brown for her insights.

Brown is a historian of gender and race in early America and the Atlantic World. Educated at Wesleyan University and the University of Wisconsin, Madison, she is author of Good Wives, Nasty Wenches, and Anxious Patriarchs: Gender, Race, and Power in Colonial Virginia (Chapel Hill, 1996), which won the Dunning Prize of the American Historical Association.

Her latest, Undoing Slavery: Bodies, Race, and Rights in the Age of Abolition, was published in 2023.

 

]]> 3972 #036 – HELL HOUSE (2001) - with Jason Bivins https://www.cageclub.me/hell-house-2001/ George Ratliff's 2001 documentary Hell House chronicles the development of the 10th annual Hell House Halloween production put on by Trinity Church in Texas. A Hell House is a variation on the Halloween haunted house tradition, in which actors play out horror movie scenarios as guests move room to room to be frightened out of their minds. But Hell Houses are, instead, tools of Christian indoctrination and recruitment, taking visitors through scenes of horror that led people to hell, like abortion, suicide, or being other than heterosexual. Ratliff's film captures a pretty specific moment in the Evangelical movement, one that has morphed and evolved into something different today. But Hell House provides us some useful insights into the role horror, fear, and trauma play in the Evangelical mind. Jason Bivins rejoins the show to talk about it. He is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism. If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu. Thu, 17 Oct 2024 07:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Jason Bivins returns to the show to talk trauma, fear, and horror in George Ratliff's 2001 documentary "Hell House". George Ratliff's 2001 documentary Hell House chronicles the development of the 10th annual Hell House Halloween production put on by Trinity Church in Texas. A Hell House is a variation on the Halloween haunted house tradition, in which actors play out horror movie scenarios as guests move room to room to be frightened out of their minds. But Hell Houses are, instead, tools of Christian indoctrination and recruitment, taking visitors through scenes of horror that led people to hell, like abortion, suicide, or being other than heterosexual. Ratliff's film captures a pretty specific moment in the Evangelical movement, one that has morphed and evolved into something different today. But Hell House provides us some useful insights into the role horror, fear, and trauma play in the Evangelical mind. Jason Bivins rejoins the show to talk about it. He is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism. If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu. George Ratliff's 2001 documentary Hell House chronicles the development of the 10th annual Hell House Halloween production put on by Trinity Church in Texas.

A Hell House is a variation on the Halloween haunted house tradition, in which actors play out horror movie scenarios as guests move room to room to be frightened out of their minds. But Hell Houses are, instead, tools of Christian indoctrination and recruitment, taking visitors through scenes of horror that led people to hell, like abortion, suicide, or being other than heterosexual.

Ratliff's film captures a pretty specific moment in the Evangelical movement, one that has morphed and evolved into something different today. But Hell House provides us some useful insights into the role horror, fear, and trauma play in the Evangelical mind.

Jason Bivins rejoins the show to talk about it. He is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism.

If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu.

]]> 4356 #035 – Sarah Posner - Humor vs. Rage and The Ohio Blood Libel https://www.cageclub.me/theyre-eating-the-dogs "They're eating the dogs" is already enshrined as one of the most memorable and iconic (and insane) phrases ever to enter the arena of American politics. Donald Trump is a ridiculous, unserious, and increasingly gullible person, and his amplifying of a fake story of Haitian immigrants in Ohio eating pets in front an audience of tens of millions is a new low even for him. "They're eating the dogs" has been memed and remixed to death already, sometimes to hilarious effect. And plenty of experts on the authoritarianism highlight the need to mock and belittle authoritarians. Plenty of "they're eating the dogs" memes serve that end. But it's also a carbon copy of the Blood Libel, the medieval conspiracy theory against Jewish populations that accused them of stealing and feeding off the blood of Christian children. So is there a line where humor has to end and genuine outrage response has to begin? Also, who's gonna win this election anyway? For thoughts on that, we turned to our friend, journalist Sarah Posner, who last joined us in March. You can find Sarah on Bluesky @sarahposner.bsky.social Tue, 01 Oct 2024 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Journalist Sarah Posner returns to the show to talk about "They're Eating the Dogs", Blood Libel, and the role mockery has to play in combatting fascism. "They're eating the dogs" is already enshrined as one of the most memorable and iconic (and insane) phrases ever to enter the arena of American politics. Donald Trump is a ridiculous, unserious, and increasingly gullible person, and his amplifying of a fake story of Haitian immigrants in Ohio eating pets in front an audience of tens of millions is a new low even for him. "They're eating the dogs" has been memed and remixed to death already, sometimes to hilarious effect. And plenty of experts on the authoritarianism highlight the need to mock and belittle authoritarians. Plenty of "they're eating the dogs" memes serve that end. But it's also a carbon copy of the Blood Libel, the medieval conspiracy theory against Jewish populations that accused them of stealing and feeding off the blood of Christian children. So is there a line where humor has to end and genuine outrage response has to begin? Also, who's gonna win this election anyway? For thoughts on that, we turned to our friend, journalist Sarah Posner, who last joined us in March. You can find Sarah on Bluesky @sarahposner.bsky.social "They're eating the dogs" is already enshrined as one of the most memorable and iconic (and insane) phrases ever to enter the arena of American politics.

Donald Trump is a ridiculous, unserious, and increasingly gullible person, and his amplifying of a fake story of Haitian immigrants in Ohio eating pets in front an audience of tens of millions is a new low even for him.


"They're eating the dogs" has been memed and remixed to death already, sometimes to hilarious effect. And plenty of experts on the authoritarianism highlight the need to mock and belittle authoritarians. Plenty of "they're eating the dogs" memes serve that end.


But it's also a carbon copy of the Blood Libel, the medieval conspiracy theory against Jewish populations that accused them of stealing and feeding off the blood of Christian children.


So is there a line where humor has to end and genuine outrage response has to begin?


Also, who's gonna win this election anyway?


For thoughts on that, we turned to our friend, journalist Sarah Posner, who last joined us in March.


You can find Sarah on Bluesky @sarahposner.bsky.social

]]> 3959 #034 – Thomas Lecaque - Why the right can't stop loving the Crusades (and other losers) https://www.cageclub.me/thomas-lecaque/ This week, in part inspired by the anniversary of 9/11, Kelly and John invited Thomas Lecaque on the show to talk about the ways the Christian right frame the Crusades and other violent failures to justify their own acts of political and religious violence. Thomas Lecaque is an associate professor of History at Grand View University in Des Moines, Iowa. He specializes in the nexus of apocalyptic religion and political violence. He has written for the Washington Post, Religion Dispatches, Foreign Policy and The Bulwark, among others. He has recently turned his attention to colonial America, examining the ways in which Christian holy war zeal shaped the American landscape Also this week, John delivers some really bad news about ciabatta, and Thomas and Kelly go head to head in POK's exciting new game "What The Hell Was He Talking About?" You can find Thomas on Twitter @tlecaque Tue, 17 Sep 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John welcome historian Thomas Lecaque to talk about the religious right's unending obsession with the Crusades and other disastrous, losing enterprises. This week, in part inspired by the anniversary of 9/11, Kelly and John invited Thomas Lecaque on the show to talk about the ways the Christian right frame the Crusades and other violent failures to justify their own acts of political and religious violence. Thomas Lecaque is an associate professor of History at Grand View University in Des Moines, Iowa. He specializes in the nexus of apocalyptic religion and political violence. He has written for the Washington Post, Religion Dispatches, Foreign Policy and The Bulwark, among others. He has recently turned his attention to colonial America, examining the ways in which Christian holy war zeal shaped the American landscape Also this week, John delivers some really bad news about ciabatta, and Thomas and Kelly go head to head in POK's exciting new game "What The Hell Was He Talking About?" You can find Thomas on Twitter @tlecaque This week, in part inspired by the anniversary of 9/11, Kelly and John invited Thomas Lecaque on the show to talk about the ways the Christian right frame the Crusades and other violent failures to justify their own acts of political and religious violence.

Thomas Lecaque is an associate professor of History at Grand View University in Des Moines, Iowa. He specializes in the nexus of apocalyptic religion and political violence. He has written for the Washington Post, Religion Dispatches, Foreign Policy and The Bulwark, among others. He has recently turned his attention to colonial America, examining the ways in which Christian holy war zeal shaped the American landscape

Also this week, John delivers some really bad news about ciabatta, and Thomas and Kelly go head to head in POK's exciting new game "What The Hell Was He Talking About?"

You can find Thomas on Twitter @tlecaque

]]> 4078 #033 – “Jesus Camp” (2006) with Megan Goodwin https://www.cageclub.me/jesus-camp/ Jesus Camp was 2006's other big documentary, nominated for the Academy Award for documentary feature but losing out to a little film called An Inconvenient Truth. Directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (and timed, coincidentally, to the appointment of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court) it mainly follows three young evangelical Christians as they prepare to attend the Kids On Fire summer camp, run by a youth pastor named Becky Fischer. Largely through interviews with Fischer and the children, Ewing and Grady paint a picture of an emerging movement to indoctrinate young people in order to take on secularism at every level of American life as adults. 18 years later, Jesus Camp provides a fascinating juxtaposition between the far-right evangelical movement then (with its obsession with George W. Bush, Harry Potter, Intelligent Design, and Ted Haggard) and the post-January 6th, Trumpian present. Megan Goodwin again joins Kelly and John to sort through all this and more. For an update on the three featured kids, you can check out Jennifer Tisdale's post on Distractify here: https://www.distractify.com/p/jesus-camp-where-are-they-now Tue, 03 Sep 2024 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Megan Goodwin returns to discuss Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady's 2006 Academy Award-nominated documentary "Jesus Camp" Jesus Camp was 2006's other big documentary, nominated for the Academy Award for documentary feature but losing out to a little film called An Inconvenient Truth. Directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (and timed, coincidentally, to the appointment of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court) it mainly follows three young evangelical Christians as they prepare to attend the Kids On Fire summer camp, run by a youth pastor named Becky Fischer. Largely through interviews with Fischer and the children, Ewing and Grady paint a picture of an emerging movement to indoctrinate young people in order to take on secularism at every level of American life as adults. 18 years later, Jesus Camp provides a fascinating juxtaposition between the far-right evangelical movement then (with its obsession with George W. Bush, Harry Potter, Intelligent Design, and Ted Haggard) and the post-January 6th, Trumpian present. Megan Goodwin again joins Kelly and John to sort through all this and more. For an update on the three featured kids, you can check out Jennifer Tisdale's post on Distractify here: https://www.distractify.com/p/jesus-camp-where-are-they-now Jesus Camp was 2006's other big documentary, nominated for the Academy Award for documentary feature but losing out to a little film called An Inconvenient Truth.

Directed by Heidi Ewing and Rachel Grady (and timed, coincidentally, to the appointment of Samuel Alito to the Supreme Court) it mainly follows three young evangelical Christians as they prepare to attend the Kids On Fire summer camp, run by a youth pastor named Becky Fischer.

Largely through interviews with Fischer and the children, Ewing and Grady paint a picture of an emerging movement to indoctrinate young people in order to take on secularism at every level of American life as adults.


18 years later, Jesus Camp provides a fascinating juxtaposition between the far-right evangelical movement then (with its obsession with George W. Bush, Harry Potter, Intelligent Design, and Ted Haggard) and the post-January 6th, Trumpian present.

Megan Goodwin again joins Kelly and John to sort through all this and more.


For an update on the three featured kids, you can check out Jennifer Tisdale's post on Distractify here: https://www.distractify.com/p/jesus-camp-where-are-they-now

]]> 4568 #032 - Stockholm Syndrome: The Story of a Dumb Idea https://www.cageclub.me/stockholm-syndrome/ Stockholm Syndrome is a really good MUSE song. Unfortunately, it's not a good anything else.0 On a recent episode of television's worst show, The Five on Fox News, panelist Jessica Tarlov, herself Jewish, asked her fellow panelist Greg Gutfeld why Jews tend to be Democrat and not Republican. His answer? Stockholm syndrome. Most people could probably give a decent summary of what Stockholm syndrome supposedly is - the phenomenon of a hostage coming sympathize and even identify with their captor - but few of them would be able to accurately recount the story that gave rise to its supposed existence. This stubbornly enduring - and almost certainly wrong - belief has gone on to influence the way we think about why people take on certain political positions, join cults, or even adhere to extremist religious views. So we decided it was worth taking a look at the story at its center to find out what it can tell us about why we are so wrong about how we think about out other people think. Of the many resources used for this episode, none was better at filling in the most important gaps than Rebecca Armitage's piece for ABC News Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-23/is-stockholm-syndrome-a-myth/102738084 Tue, 13 Aug 2024 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks John and Kelly take a look at the event that gave us Stockholm syndrome and discuss why it probably doesn't exist (and what that tells us) Stockholm Syndrome is a really good MUSE song. Unfortunately, it's not a good anything else.0 On a recent episode of television's worst show, The Five on Fox News, panelist Jessica Tarlov, herself Jewish, asked her fellow panelist Greg Gutfeld why Jews tend to be Democrat and not Republican. His answer? Stockholm syndrome. Most people could probably give a decent summary of what Stockholm syndrome supposedly is - the phenomenon of a hostage coming sympathize and even identify with their captor - but few of them would be able to accurately recount the story that gave rise to its supposed existence. This stubbornly enduring - and almost certainly wrong - belief has gone on to influence the way we think about why people take on certain political positions, join cults, or even adhere to extremist religious views. So we decided it was worth taking a look at the story at its center to find out what it can tell us about why we are so wrong about how we think about out other people think. Of the many resources used for this episode, none was better at filling in the most important gaps than Rebecca Armitage's piece for ABC News Australia https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-23/is-stockholm-syndrome-a-myth/102738084 Stockholm Syndrome is a really good MUSE song. Unfortunately, it's not a good anything else.0

On a recent episode of television's worst show, The Five on Fox News, panelist Jessica Tarlov, herself Jewish, asked her fellow panelist Greg Gutfeld why Jews tend to be Democrat and not Republican. His answer? Stockholm syndrome.

Most people could probably give a decent summary of what Stockholm syndrome supposedly is - the phenomenon of a hostage coming sympathize and even identify with their captor - but few of them would be able to accurately recount the story that gave rise to its supposed existence.

This stubbornly enduring - and almost certainly wrong - belief has gone on to influence the way we think about why people take on certain political positions, join cults, or even adhere to extremist religious views. So we decided it was worth taking a look at the story at its center to find out what it can tell us about why we are so wrong about how we think about out other people think.

Of the many resources used for this episode, none was better at filling in the most important gaps than Rebecca Armitage's piece for ABC News Australia

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-08-23/is-stockholm-syndrome-a-myth/102738084

]]> 3044 #031 - Project 2025 (and why you should really, really care about it) https://www.cageclub.me/project-2025/ Project 2025 has (finally) become an enormous national news story. But while its goals (which go after everything from contraception to the Department of Education) have rightly been in the spotlight, it's also important to understand that, far from being the fantasy wish list of a group of fringe conservatives, it is in fact a project of a major think tank, decades in the making. It comes out of the Heritage Foundation, an organization founded by anti-democratic far-right Christian nationalist Paul Weyrich and currently run by the like-minded Kevin Roberts...whose upcoming book has a forward by JD Vance. This week, John and Kelly unpack a little bit about why you should take anything coming out of the Heritage Foundation very seriously.   LINKS! P2025 Explained: Project 2025: The myths and the facts Democrats Are Sounding the Alarm About Project 2025. What’s in It? What is Project 2025? What to know about the conservative blueprint for a second Trump administration Project 2025: A wish list for a Trump presidency, explained Other Resources: Trump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administration Trump claims not to know who is behind Project 2025. A CNN review found at least 140 people who worked for him are involved J.D. Vance has made it impossible for Trump to run away from Project 2025 Liz Theoharis and Shailly Gupta Barnes - Project 2025: The Christian Nationalist Vision to be Imposed on America   Tue, 30 Jul 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks John and Kelly look behind the curtain of Project 2025, including a look at the key players both in its creation and of the organization that produced it, the Heritage Foundation. Project 2025 has (finally) become an enormous national news story. But while its goals (which go after everything from contraception to the Department of Education) have rightly been in the spotlight, it's also important to understand that, far from being the fantasy wish list of a group of fringe conservatives, it is in fact a project of a major think tank, decades in the making. It comes out of the Heritage Foundation, an organization founded by anti-democratic far-right Christian nationalist Paul Weyrich and currently run by the like-minded Kevin Roberts...whose upcoming book has a forward by JD Vance. This week, John and Kelly unpack a little bit about why you should take anything coming out of the Heritage Foundation very seriously.   LINKS! P2025 Explained: Project 2025: The myths and the facts Democrats Are Sounding the Alarm About Project 2025. What’s in It? What is Project 2025? What to know about the conservative blueprint for a second Trump administration Project 2025: A wish list for a Trump presidency, explained Other Resources: Trump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administration Trump claims not to know who is behind Project 2025. A CNN review found at least 140 people who worked for him are involved J.D. Vance has made it impossible for Trump to run away from Project 2025 Liz Theoharis and Shailly Gupta Barnes - Project 2025: The Christian Nationalist Vision to be Imposed on America   Project 2025 has (finally) become an enormous national news story.

But while its goals (which go after everything from contraception to the Department of Education) have rightly been in the spotlight, it's also important to understand that, far from being the fantasy wish list of a group of fringe conservatives, it is in fact a project of a major think tank, decades in the making.

It comes out of the Heritage Foundation, an organization founded by anti-democratic far-right Christian nationalist Paul Weyrich and currently run by the like-minded Kevin Roberts...whose upcoming book has a forward by JD Vance.

This week, John and Kelly unpack a little bit about why you should take anything coming out of the Heritage Foundation very seriously.

 

LINKS!

P2025 Explained:

Project 2025: The myths and the facts

Democrats Are Sounding the Alarm About Project 2025. What’s in It?

What is Project 2025? What to know about the conservative blueprint for a second Trump administration

Project 2025: A wish list for a Trump presidency, explained

Other Resources:

Trump allies prepare to infuse ‘Christian nationalism’ in second administration

Trump claims not to know who is behind Project 2025. A CNN review found at least 140 people who worked for him are involved

J.D. Vance has made it impossible for Trump to run away from Project 2025

Liz Theoharis and Shailly Gupta Barnes - Project 2025: The Christian Nationalist Vision to be Imposed on America

 

]]> 3851 #030 - "Marjoe" (1972) with Megan Goodwin https://www.cageclub.me/marjoe/ The 1972 film Marjoe won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. And then it spent a long time having largely been forgotten until it was restored and rereleased in 2005. Marjoe is an intimate look at the life of Marjoe Gortner, who rose to fame in the charismatic evangelical revival world as the world's youngest preacher until he was ultimately unmasked as a fraud, trained (often through torture) to deliver sermons with fake piety while fleecing untold crowds of true believers. The film starts with Marjoe in his twenties having made a comeback, fully aware he was still a conman and showing at least some signs of remorse and discomfort with the grift. It's a film told from a questionable perspective, dripping with iffy journalistic ethics, but it poses (even if inadvertently) some tantalizing, unanswerable questions about, among other things, the role sincerity plays in the preacher-believer relationship and the unfortunate ease with which religion can be leveraged to stay cons. Our friend Megan Goodwin joins us to talk through all of it. Tue, 16 Jul 2024 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. Megan Goodwin rejoins Kelly and John to discuss the 1972 documentary "Marjoe" The 1972 film Marjoe won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. And then it spent a long time having largely been forgotten until it was restored and rereleased in 2005. Marjoe is an intimate look at the life of Marjoe Gortner, who rose to fame in the charismatic evangelical revival world as the world's youngest preacher until he was ultimately unmasked as a fraud, trained (often through torture) to deliver sermons with fake piety while fleecing untold crowds of true believers. The film starts with Marjoe in his twenties having made a comeback, fully aware he was still a conman and showing at least some signs of remorse and discomfort with the grift. It's a film told from a questionable perspective, dripping with iffy journalistic ethics, but it poses (even if inadvertently) some tantalizing, unanswerable questions about, among other things, the role sincerity plays in the preacher-believer relationship and the unfortunate ease with which religion can be leveraged to stay cons. Our friend Megan Goodwin joins us to talk through all of it. The 1972 film Marjoe won the Academy Award for Best Documentary Feature. And then it spent a long time having largely been forgotten until it was restored and rereleased in 2005.

Marjoe is an intimate look at the life of Marjoe Gortner, who rose to fame in the charismatic evangelical revival world as the world's youngest preacher until he was ultimately unmasked as a fraud, trained (often through torture) to deliver sermons with fake piety while fleecing untold crowds of true believers.

The film starts with Marjoe in his twenties having made a comeback, fully aware he was still a conman and showing at least some signs of remorse and discomfort with the grift.

It's a film told from a questionable perspective, dripping with iffy journalistic ethics, but it poses (even if inadvertently) some tantalizing, unanswerable questions about, among other things, the role sincerity plays in the preacher-believer relationship and the unfortunate ease with which religion can be leveraged to stay cons.

Our friend Megan Goodwin joins us to talk through all of it.

]]> 3654 #029 - Thou Shalt Not Violate the 1st Amendment https://www.cageclub.me/lousiana-ten-commandments/ Well it's been a heck of a week of bad news, and even before the Supreme Court decided the the president was king, Kelly and John decided to look at two news stories likely to play into next year's Supreme Court decisions: Louisiana's new Ten Commandment school mandate and Oklahoma's new requirement to include the Bible in its public school curriculum. On the surface, both of these measures are clearly, explicitly unconstitutional, and both have plenty of precedent to back up their unconstitutionality. But in this episode we argue that that may not matter, and that lawsuit-hungry ideas like these are designed to fine-tune a decades-long attempt to bring Christian indoctrination into the public education system. And, given the makeup of the current court, one of them may actually work. Some resources used in this episode: Tue, 02 Jul 2024 08:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John take a look at two different attempts to put Christian indoctrination in public classrooms in Louisiana and Oklahoma Well it's been a heck of a week of bad news, and even before the Supreme Court decided the the president was king, Kelly and John decided to look at two news stories likely to play into next year's Supreme Court decisions: Louisiana's new Ten Commandment school mandate and Oklahoma's new requirement to include the Bible in its public school curriculum. On the surface, both of these measures are clearly, explicitly unconstitutional, and both have plenty of precedent to back up their unconstitutionality. But in this episode we argue that that may not matter, and that lawsuit-hungry ideas like these are designed to fine-tune a decades-long attempt to bring Christian indoctrination into the public education system. And, given the makeup of the current court, one of them may actually work. Some resources used in this episode: Well it's been a heck of a week of bad news, and even before the Supreme Court decided the the president was king, Kelly and John decided to look at two news stories likely to play into next year's Supreme Court decisions: Louisiana's new Ten Commandment school mandate and Oklahoma's new requirement to include the Bible in its public school curriculum.


On the surface, both of these measures are clearly, explicitly unconstitutional, and both have plenty of precedent to back up their unconstitutionality.


But in this episode we argue that that may not matter, and that lawsuit-hungry ideas like these are designed to fine-tune a decades-long attempt to bring Christian indoctrination into the public education system.


And, given the makeup of the current court, one of them may actually work.


Some resources used in this episode:

]]> 3304 #028 - Dr. Matthew Taylor on An Appeal to Heaven, Alito, and the NAR https://www.cageclub.me/matthew-taylor-appeal-to-heaven/ We're back for season two, and we're kicking it off by talking to Dr. Matthew D. Taylor about that weird An Appeal to Heaven flag that got Justice Samuel Alito in so much trouble! Taylor holds a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and Muslim-Christian Relations from Georgetown University and an M.A. in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. His book, Scripture People: Salafi Muslims in Evangelical Christians’ America (Cambridge University Press), offers an introduction to the oft-misunderstood Salafi movement in the U.S. by way of comparison with American Evangelicalism. He is also the creator of the acclaimed audio-documentary series  “Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation,” which details how networks of extremist Christian leaders helped instigate the January 6th Insurrection. His next book, The Violent Take It By Force: The Christian movement that is threatening our democracy (Broadleaf Books), will be published in Fall 2024. He joined Kelly and John to talk about the threat to democracy the flag represents, and offered his thoughts about what we can still do to break the spell of Christian Nationalism in America. Tue, 18 Jun 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. Matthew Taylor joins Kelly and John to talk about Samuel Alito's new favorite flag and the threat to democracy it represents. We're back for season two, and we're kicking it off by talking to Dr. Matthew D. Taylor about that weird An Appeal to Heaven flag that got Justice Samuel Alito in so much trouble! Taylor holds a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and Muslim-Christian Relations from Georgetown University and an M.A. in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. His book, Scripture People: Salafi Muslims in Evangelical Christians’ America (Cambridge University Press), offers an introduction to the oft-misunderstood Salafi movement in the U.S. by way of comparison with American Evangelicalism. He is also the creator of the acclaimed audio-documentary series  “Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation,” which details how networks of extremist Christian leaders helped instigate the January 6th Insurrection. His next book, The Violent Take It By Force: The Christian movement that is threatening our democracy (Broadleaf Books), will be published in Fall 2024. He joined Kelly and John to talk about the threat to democracy the flag represents, and offered his thoughts about what we can still do to break the spell of Christian Nationalism in America. We're back for season two, and we're kicking it off by talking to Dr. Matthew D. Taylor about that weird An Appeal to Heaven flag that got Justice Samuel Alito in so much trouble!

Taylor holds a Ph.D. in Religious Studies and Muslim-Christian Relations from Georgetown University and an M.A. in Theology from Fuller Theological Seminary. His book, Scripture People: Salafi Muslims in Evangelical Christians’ America (Cambridge University Press), offers an introduction to the oft-misunderstood Salafi movement in the U.S. by way of comparison with American Evangelicalism.

He is also the creator of the acclaimed audio-documentary series  “Charismatic Revival Fury: The New Apostolic Reformation,” which details how networks of extremist Christian leaders helped instigate the January 6th Insurrection. His next book, The Violent Take It By Force: The Christian movement that is threatening our democracy (Broadleaf Books), will be published in Fall 2024.

He joined Kelly and John to talk about the threat to democracy the flag represents, and offered his thoughts about what we can still do to break the spell of Christian Nationalism in America.

]]> 4357 #027 - DeSantis v Satan https://www.cageclub.me/ron-desantis-satanism/ Last month, Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill authorizing Florida school districts and charter schools to adopt a policy for chaplains “to provide support, services, and programs to students"...provided those chaplains aren't Satanists. "We're not playing those games in Florida. That is not a religion," DeSantis said of Satanism. "That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this." The thing is, though, Satanism most definitely is a religion, and in the case of The Satanic Temple it is a religion in the eyes of United States tax law. DeSantis may well have said this knowing his bill likely violates the 1st amendment and thus inviting an inevitable legal fight with The Satanic Temple's founder, social justice and 1st Amendment activist Lucien Greaves. In our final episode of the season - marking the podcasts' one year anniversary - Kelly and John talk about the bill as part of creeping Christian Nationalism, why it's so hard to define a religion (and why governments shouldn't be in the business of doing so), and what Lucien Greaves and The Satanic Temple actually stand for.   Tue, 07 May 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John discuss the Florida school chaplain bill signed by Gov. Ron DeSantis and its arbitrary banning of Satanists Last month, Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill authorizing Florida school districts and charter schools to adopt a policy for chaplains “to provide support, services, and programs to students"...provided those chaplains aren't Satanists. "We're not playing those games in Florida. That is not a religion," DeSantis said of Satanism. "That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this." The thing is, though, Satanism most definitely is a religion, and in the case of The Satanic Temple it is a religion in the eyes of United States tax law. DeSantis may well have said this knowing his bill likely violates the 1st amendment and thus inviting an inevitable legal fight with The Satanic Temple's founder, social justice and 1st Amendment activist Lucien Greaves. In our final episode of the season - marking the podcasts' one year anniversary - Kelly and John talk about the bill as part of creeping Christian Nationalism, why it's so hard to define a religion (and why governments shouldn't be in the business of doing so), and what Lucien Greaves and The Satanic Temple actually stand for.   Last month, Florida governor Ron DeSantis signed a bill authorizing Florida school districts and charter schools to adopt a policy for chaplains “to provide support, services, and programs to students"...provided those chaplains aren't Satanists.

"We're not playing those games in Florida. That is not a religion," DeSantis said of Satanism. "That is not qualifying to be able to participate in this."

The thing is, though, Satanism most definitely is a religion, and in the case of The Satanic Temple it is a religion in the eyes of United States tax law.

DeSantis may well have said this knowing his bill likely violates the 1st amendment and thus inviting an inevitable legal fight with The Satanic Temple's founder, social justice and 1st Amendment activist Lucien Greaves.

In our final episode of the season - marking the podcasts' one year anniversary - Kelly and John talk about the bill as part of creeping Christian Nationalism, why it's so hard to define a religion (and why governments shouldn't be in the business of doing so), and what Lucien Greaves and The Satanic Temple actually stand for.

 

]]> 3693 #026 - Dr. Richard Newton https://www.cageclub.me/richard-newton/ Dr. Richard Newton is an Associate Professor and Undergraduate Director in the Religious Studies department at the University of Alabama From the University's website: Dr. Newton's areas of interest include theory and method in the study of religion, African American history, the New Testament in Western imagination, American cultural politics, and pedagogy in religious studies. His research explores how people create “scriptures” and how those productions operate in the formation of identities and cultural boundaries. In addition to an array of book chapters and online essays, Dr. Newton has published in the Journal of Biblical Literature and Method & Theory in the Study of Religion among other venues. His book, Identifying Roots: Alex Haley and the Anthropology of Scriptures (Equinox, 2020), casts Alex Haley’s Roots as a case study in the dynamics of scriptures and identity politics with critical implication for the study of race, religion, and media. And you can learn more about his use of digital media and pedagogy at his site, Sowing the Seed: Fruitful Conversations in Religion, Culture, and Teaching. He joined Kelly and John to talk about a cul-de-sac in Houston led him to religious studies, the value of scripture, and Pearl Jam. Find him on Twitter @seedpods Tue, 23 Apr 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John are joined for a wide-ranging discussion with Dr. Richard Newton, religious studies professor at the University of Alabama Dr. Richard Newton is an Associate Professor and Undergraduate Director in the Religious Studies department at the University of Alabama From the University's website: Dr. Newton's areas of interest include theory and method in the study of religion, African American history, the New Testament in Western imagination, American cultural politics, and pedagogy in religious studies. His research explores how people create “scriptures” and how those productions operate in the formation of identities and cultural boundaries. In addition to an array of book chapters and online essays, Dr. Newton has published in the Journal of Biblical Literature and Method & Theory in the Study of Religion among other venues. His book, Identifying Roots: Alex Haley and the Anthropology of Scriptures (Equinox, 2020), casts Alex Haley’s Roots as a case study in the dynamics of scriptures and identity politics with critical implication for the study of race, religion, and media. And you can learn more about his use of digital media and pedagogy at his site, Sowing the Seed: Fruitful Conversations in Religion, Culture, and Teaching. He joined Kelly and John to talk about a cul-de-sac in Houston led him to religious studies, the value of scripture, and Pearl Jam. Find him on Twitter @seedpods Dr. Richard Newton is an Associate Professor and Undergraduate Director in the Religious Studies department at the University of Alabama

From the University's website:

Dr. Newton's areas of interest include theory and method in the study of religion, African American history, the New Testament in Western imagination, American cultural politics, and pedagogy in religious studies. His research explores how people create “scriptures” and how those productions operate in the formation of identities and cultural boundaries.

In addition to an array of book chapters and online essays, Dr. Newton has published in the Journal of Biblical Literature and Method & Theory in the Study of Religion among other venues. His book, Identifying Roots: Alex Haley and the Anthropology of Scriptures (Equinox, 2020), casts Alex Haley’s Roots as a case study in the dynamics of scriptures and identity politics with critical implication for the study of race, religion, and media. And you can learn more about his use of digital media and pedagogy at his site, Sowing the Seed: Fruitful Conversations in Religion, Culture, and Teaching.

He joined Kelly and John to talk about a cul-de-sac in Houston led him to religious studies, the value of scripture, and Pearl Jam.

Find him on Twitter @seedpods

]]> 3655 #025 - Eclipse Day Special! - featuring journalist Emily McFarlan Miller https://www.cageclub.me/eclipse-emily-mcfarlan-miller/ It's Eclipse Day, so we're releasing a day early! The solar eclipse that will be visible for much of the United States today had evoked all kinds of reactions, from overbooked hotels in wholly unprepared corners of the country to end times zealots declaring it a warning from God. Eclipses have always been a source of wonder and religious interpretation, and if Marjorie Taylor Greene's Twitter feed is any indication, there is no sign of that slowing down anytime soon. But do eclipses also have a place among the more level-headed, mainline religious communities in America? We asked journalist Emily McFarlan Miller, who wrote about religion and eclipses for the 2017 solar eclipse, to share her thoughts on the matter. You can find Emily on most of the socials with the handle @emmillerwrites. Her piece on the last eclipse, from Religion News Services, can be found here: Signs and wonder: How people of different faiths view the total solar eclipse Mon, 08 Apr 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John discuss eclipses and invite journalist Emily McFarlan Miller to talk about how religious communities are responding to the event. It's Eclipse Day, so we're releasing a day early! The solar eclipse that will be visible for much of the United States today had evoked all kinds of reactions, from overbooked hotels in wholly unprepared corners of the country to end times zealots declaring it a warning from God. Eclipses have always been a source of wonder and religious interpretation, and if Marjorie Taylor Greene's Twitter feed is any indication, there is no sign of that slowing down anytime soon. But do eclipses also have a place among the more level-headed, mainline religious communities in America? We asked journalist Emily McFarlan Miller, who wrote about religion and eclipses for the 2017 solar eclipse, to share her thoughts on the matter. You can find Emily on most of the socials with the handle @emmillerwrites. Her piece on the last eclipse, from Religion News Services, can be found here: Signs and wonder: How people of different faiths view the total solar eclipse It's Eclipse Day, so we're releasing a day early!

The solar eclipse that will be visible for much of the United States today had evoked all kinds of reactions, from overbooked hotels in wholly unprepared corners of the country to end times zealots declaring it a warning from God.

Eclipses have always been a source of wonder and religious interpretation, and if Marjorie Taylor Greene's Twitter feed is any indication, there is no sign of that slowing down anytime soon.

But do eclipses also have a place among the more level-headed, mainline religious communities in America?

We asked journalist Emily McFarlan Miller, who wrote about religion and eclipses for the 2017 solar eclipse, to share her thoughts on the matter.

You can find Emily on most of the socials with the handle @emmillerwrites. Her piece on the last eclipse, from Religion News Services, can be found here: Signs and wonder: How people of different faiths view the total solar eclipse

]]> 3395 #024 - Simulation Theory, or Young Earth Creationism for Atheists https://www.cageclub.me/simulation-theory/ In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/   Tue, 26 Mar 2024 14:48:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks In honor of the 25th anniversary of THE MATRIX, Kelly and John look into the theory that reality is just a computer simulation In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment. But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper. In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory? In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question. Sources https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/ https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/ https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/   In 2003, Oxford University philosophy professor Nick Bostrom published a paper titled Are You Living in a Computer Simulation, thus giving rise to the modern incarnation of Simulation Theory, which posits that our experienced reality is actually the product of an advanced (possibly future-self) civilization running a simulation experiment.

But the paper on might have been written off as a useful thought experiment had it not been for the popularity of the 1999 film The Matrix, which celebrates its 25th anniversary this month, and its two sequels, which came out the same year as Bostrom's paper.

In the years since, Simulation Theory has become a lot of things to a lot of people - from a fun metaphor to explain Cartesian philosophy to college freshmen to an all-out article of faith for an increasingly doctrinaire sub-culture of futurists. How useful (or even likely) is Simulation Theory?

In honor of The Matrix's birthday, John and Kelly decided to take up that question.

Sources

https://simulation-argument.com/simulation.pdf

https://builtin.com/hardware/simulation-theory

https://www.scientificamerican.com/article/do-we-live-in-a-simulation-chances-are-about-50-50/

https://www.wired.com/story/living-in-a-simulation/

https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2016/04/the-illusion-of-reality/479559/

 

]]> 3195 #023 - Sarah Posner https://www.cageclub.me/sarah-posner/ Sarah Posner has been covering the Christian right and Christian Nationalism for more than a decade. A regular contributor to MSNBC, her works has also appeared in The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Atlantic, Salon, The Nation, The American Prospect, Al Jazeera America, and many other publications. Posner is the author of 2008's God's Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters and 2020's Unholy: How White Christian Nationalists Powered the Trump Presidency, and the Devastating Legacy They Left Behind. She joined Kelly and John last week, on the eve of the State of the Union Address and just as Donald Trump had secured the Republican nomination for the 2024 presidential race, about how she came to cover religion, how Christian Nationalism has evolved over the past few decades, and what she thinks is ahead, whether Trump returns to power or not. Her website is http://sarahposner.com. Tue, 12 Mar 2024 04:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk to journalist and author Sarah Posner about the past, present, and future of Christian Nationalism in America. Sarah Posner has been covering the Christian right and Christian Nationalism for more than a decade. A regular contributor to MSNBC, her works has also appeared in The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Atlantic, Salon, The Nation, The American Prospect, Al Jazeera America, and many other publications. Posner is the author of 2008's God's Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters and 2020's Unholy: How White Christian Nationalists Powered the Trump Presidency, and the Devastating Legacy They Left Behind. She joined Kelly and John last week, on the eve of the State of the Union Address and just as Donald Trump had secured the Republican nomination for the 2024 presidential race, about how she came to cover religion, how Christian Nationalism has evolved over the past few decades, and what she thinks is ahead, whether Trump returns to power or not. Her website is http://sarahposner.com. Sarah Posner has been covering the Christian right and Christian Nationalism for more than a decade. A regular contributor to MSNBC, her works has also appeared in The Washington Post, The Guardian, The Atlantic, Salon, The Nation, The American Prospect, Al Jazeera America, and many other publications.

Posner is the author of 2008's God's Profits: Faith, Fraud, and the Republican Crusade for Values Voters and 2020's Unholy: How White Christian Nationalists Powered the Trump Presidency, and the Devastating Legacy They Left Behind.

She joined Kelly and John last week, on the eve of the State of the Union Address and just as Donald Trump had secured the Republican nomination for the 2024 presidential race, about how she came to cover religion, how Christian Nationalism has evolved over the past few decades, and what she thinks is ahead, whether Trump returns to power or not.

Her website is http://sarahposner.com.

]]> 3400 #022 - God's Army with Amanda Moore https://www.cageclub.me/amanda-moore/ For the last couple years, Amanda Moore has spent her time covering the far right on her Substack The Turtle Diaries Amanda infiltrated the far right during the final year of the Trump administration and has written about her experiences in publications like The Nation. She recently went to the Texas border to cover the arrival of "God's Army" - a group of truckers (possibly) who took it upon themselves to defend the border from an "invasion" and maybe possibly kick of the 2nd Civil War (they didn't). Amanda joined Kelly and John to talk about her experience at the border (which led to her acquiring a new far-right, J6-alumnus stalker), growing up with fundamentalism, how she sees QAnon as a perfectly predictable offshoot of evangelicalism, and whether she thinks the right is poised to bubble over in violence once again. You can find her on Twitter (and other social media) @noturtlesoup17 Tue, 27 Feb 2024 05:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk to Amanda Moore about God's Army, QAnon, and some guy named Michael Yon. For the last couple years, Amanda Moore has spent her time covering the far right on her Substack The Turtle Diaries Amanda infiltrated the far right during the final year of the Trump administration and has written about her experiences in publications like The Nation. She recently went to the Texas border to cover the arrival of "God's Army" - a group of truckers (possibly) who took it upon themselves to defend the border from an "invasion" and maybe possibly kick of the 2nd Civil War (they didn't). Amanda joined Kelly and John to talk about her experience at the border (which led to her acquiring a new far-right, J6-alumnus stalker), growing up with fundamentalism, how she sees QAnon as a perfectly predictable offshoot of evangelicalism, and whether she thinks the right is poised to bubble over in violence once again. You can find her on Twitter (and other social media) @noturtlesoup17 For the last couple years, Amanda Moore has spent her time covering the far right on her Substack The Turtle Diaries

Amanda infiltrated the far right during the final year of the Trump administration and has written about her experiences in publications like The Nation.

She recently went to the Texas border to cover the arrival of "God's Army" - a group of truckers (possibly) who took it upon themselves to defend the border from an "invasion" and maybe possibly kick of the 2nd Civil War (they didn't).

Amanda joined Kelly and John to talk about her experience at the border (which led to her acquiring a new far-right, J6-alumnus stalker), growing up with fundamentalism, how she sees QAnon as a perfectly predictable offshoot of evangelicalism, and whether she thinks the right is poised to bubble over in violence once again.

You can find her on Twitter (and other social media) @noturtlesoup17

]]> 3644 #021 - Dr. Nicole Symmonds https://www.cageclub.me/nicole-symmonds This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Nicole Symmonds, who works as an Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics and, it happens, used to work a few cubicles down from John at Beliefnet a decade and a half or so ago. Dr. Symmonds' work sits at the intersection of Christian ethics and women, gender, and sexuality studies. She explores Black women’s embodiment, particularly the practices of liberative embodiment they craft as a method of resistance to domination and as a simulation of freedom. Dr. Symmonds identifies as Black Catholic, a religious tradition that follows the rite of the Roman Catholic Church but is driven by the spirit of Blackness in all its forms according to Black people’s diasporic origins and heritage. She is a parishioner at Our Lady of Lourdes, the Mother Church of African-American Catholics in the Archdiocese of Atlanta. In this episode, she discusses her work studying evangelicals and anti-sex-trafficking work, becoming a Black Catholic, TikTok, and why she emphasizes the term "womanism" in her studies.` She is on Twitter @nicole_symmonds Tue, 13 Feb 2024 13:52:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk to Dr. Nicole Symmonds about her work, her journey to Black Catholicism, and working with John at Beliefnet This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Nicole Symmonds, who works as an Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics and, it happens, used to work a few cubicles down from John at Beliefnet a decade and a half or so ago. Dr. Symmonds' work sits at the intersection of Christian ethics and women, gender, and sexuality studies. She explores Black women’s embodiment, particularly the practices of liberative embodiment they craft as a method of resistance to domination and as a simulation of freedom. Dr. Symmonds identifies as Black Catholic, a religious tradition that follows the rite of the Roman Catholic Church but is driven by the spirit of Blackness in all its forms according to Black people’s diasporic origins and heritage. She is a parishioner at Our Lady of Lourdes, the Mother Church of African-American Catholics in the Archdiocese of Atlanta. In this episode, she discusses her work studying evangelicals and anti-sex-trafficking work, becoming a Black Catholic, TikTok, and why she emphasizes the term "womanism" in her studies.` She is on Twitter @nicole_symmonds This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Nicole Symmonds, who works as an Assistant Professor of Christian Ethics and, it happens, used to work a few cubicles down from John at Beliefnet a decade and a half or so ago.

Dr. Symmonds' work sits at the intersection of Christian ethics and women, gender, and sexuality studies. She explores Black women’s embodiment, particularly the practices of liberative embodiment they craft as a method of resistance to domination and as a simulation of freedom.

Dr. Symmonds identifies as Black Catholic, a religious tradition that follows the rite of the Roman Catholic Church but is driven by the spirit of Blackness in all its forms according to Black people’s diasporic origins and heritage. She is a parishioner at Our Lady of Lourdes, the Mother Church of African-American Catholics in the Archdiocese of Atlanta.

In this episode, she discusses her work studying evangelicals and anti-sex-trafficking work, becoming a Black Catholic, TikTok, and why she emphasizes the term "womanism" in her studies.`

She is on Twitter @nicole_symmonds

]]> 4418 #020 - Dr. Judith Weisenfeld https://www.cageclub.me/judith-weisenfeld/ As a nice break from all the doom and gloom in the world (and the depressing stuff we often cover), we decided to ask the wonderful Dr. Judith Weisenfeld to come talk to us about her life and work. Judith Weisenfeld is the Agate Brown and George L. Collord Professor of Religion at Princeton University, Associated Faculty in the Department of African American Studies and the Program in Gender and Sexuality Studies, and a member of the Executive Committee of the Effron Center for the Study of America. Her research focuses on early twentieth-century African American religious history, and she has explored a range of topics, including in the relation of religion to constructions of race, the impact on black religious life of migration, immigration, and urbanization in African American women’s religious history, and religion in film and popular culture. She is currently the Director of The Crossroads Project: Black Religious Histories, Communities and Cultures, a four-year project funded by the Henry Luce Foundation aimed at producing deeper understandings of the history and diversity of Black religious life in the U.S. Here she talks to Kelly and John about how she got into religious studies, the joys of accidentally discovering new things during research, and her books Hollywood Be Thy Name and New World A-Coming. She is on Twitter @JLWeisenfeld Tue, 30 Jan 2024 14:23:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John talk to Dr. Judith Weisenfeld about her life in religious studies and her books, Hollywood Be Thy Name and New World A-Coming. As a nice break from all the doom and gloom in the world (and the depressing stuff we often cover), we decided to ask the wonderful Dr. Judith Weisenfeld to come talk to us about her life and work. Judith Weisenfeld is the Agate Brown and George L. Collord Professor of Religion at Princeton University, Associated Faculty in the Department of African American Studies and the Program in Gender and Sexuality Studies, and a member of the Executive Committee of the Effron Center for the Study of America. Her research focuses on early twentieth-century African American religious history, and she has explored a range of topics, including in the relation of religion to constructions of race, the impact on black religious life of migration, immigration, and urbanization in African American women’s religious history, and religion in film and popular culture. She is currently the Director of The Crossroads Project: Black Religious Histories, Communities and Cultures, a four-year project funded by the Henry Luce Foundation aimed at producing deeper understandings of the history and diversity of Black religious life in the U.S. Here she talks to Kelly and John about how she got into religious studies, the joys of accidentally discovering new things during research, and her books Hollywood Be Thy Name and New World A-Coming. She is on Twitter @JLWeisenfeld As a nice break from all the doom and gloom in the world (and the depressing stuff we often cover), we decided to ask the wonderful Dr. Judith Weisenfeld to come talk to us about her life and work.

Judith Weisenfeld is the Agate Brown and George L. Collord Professor of Religion at Princeton University, Associated Faculty in the Department of African American Studies and the Program in Gender and Sexuality Studies, and a member of the Executive Committee of the Effron Center for the Study of America.

Her research focuses on early twentieth-century African American religious history, and she has explored a range of topics, including in the relation of religion to constructions of race, the impact on black religious life of migration, immigration, and urbanization in African American women’s religious history, and religion in film and popular culture.

She is currently the Director of The Crossroads Project: Black Religious Histories, Communities and Cultures, a four-year project funded by the Henry Luce Foundation aimed at producing deeper understandings of the history and diversity of Black religious life in the U.S.

Here she talks to Kelly and John about how she got into religious studies, the joys of accidentally discovering new things during research, and her books Hollywood Be Thy Name and New World A-Coming.

She is on Twitter @JLWeisenfeld

]]> 4343 #019 - The Cult of Peloton? https://www.cageclub.me/cult-of-peloton/ Is Peloton a cult? Well, Kelly owns one, so she is uniquely qualified to answer. In all seriousness, a Google search for terms like "peloton cult" or "fitness cult" yields a lot of results. Fairly or not, the fitness equipment company Peloton has been accused of fostering cult-like behavior in its customers. And the same can be said for branded workout companies like CrossFit and SoulCycle. But why? And is there anything to this? In this episode, Kelly and John ask those very questions, and explore what thinking about fitness culture in the framing of religion and cult behavior can tell us about all three of those things. And they also look at the emerging "cults" that appear to defy our traditional understanding of what they are and what leads people to them, like Twin Flames. Tue, 16 Jan 2024 05:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John make good use of Kelly's Peloton bike to explore why so many fitness crazes get accused of being cult-like. Is Peloton a cult? Well, Kelly owns one, so she is uniquely qualified to answer. In all seriousness, a Google search for terms like "peloton cult" or "fitness cult" yields a lot of results. Fairly or not, the fitness equipment company Peloton has been accused of fostering cult-like behavior in its customers. And the same can be said for branded workout companies like CrossFit and SoulCycle. But why? And is there anything to this? In this episode, Kelly and John ask those very questions, and explore what thinking about fitness culture in the framing of religion and cult behavior can tell us about all three of those things. And they also look at the emerging "cults" that appear to defy our traditional understanding of what they are and what leads people to them, like Twin Flames. Is Peloton a cult?

Well, Kelly owns one, so she is uniquely qualified to answer.

In all seriousness, a Google search for terms like "peloton cult" or "fitness cult" yields a lot of results.

Fairly or not, the fitness equipment company Peloton has been accused of fostering cult-like behavior in its customers. And the same can be said for branded workout companies like CrossFit and SoulCycle.

But why? And is there anything to this?

In this episode, Kelly and John ask those very questions, and explore what thinking about fitness culture in the framing of religion and cult behavior can tell us about all three of those things.

And they also look at the emerging "cults" that appear to defy our traditional understanding of what they are and what leads people to them, like Twin Flames.

]]> 3813 #018 - David Feltmate - The Simpsons, Religion, and Other Stuff https://www.cageclub.me/the-simpsons-religion/ 34 years ago, in December of 1989, Fox aired Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire, a Simpsons Christmas special, the de facto pilot to the subsequent primetime sitcom, and a cultural phenomenon was born. To people of a certain age, The Simpsons is part of the cultural DNA. And as an animated sitcom, it had unique license to explore elements of American culture that no other series could. And one of those elements was religion. The Simpson family went to church. They lived in a multicultural, multiethnic (but still predominantly white and Christian) community. They exposed aspects of American religious life that were hiding in plain sight. Dr. David Feltmate wrote about all this (in addition to how religion is portrayed in Family Guy and South Park) in his book Drawn to the Gods, and this week, he joined Kelly and John to talk about his life in religious studies, why he loves The Simpsons, and how religion exists in a post-Simpsons America. Tue, 02 Jan 2024 05:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. David Feltmate joins Kelly and John to talk about his life in religious studies, why he loves The Simpsons, and how religion exists in a post-Simpsons America. 34 years ago, in December of 1989, Fox aired Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire, a Simpsons Christmas special, the de facto pilot to the subsequent primetime sitcom, and a cultural phenomenon was born. To people of a certain age, The Simpsons is part of the cultural DNA. And as an animated sitcom, it had unique license to explore elements of American culture that no other series could. And one of those elements was religion. The Simpson family went to church. They lived in a multicultural, multiethnic (but still predominantly white and Christian) community. They exposed aspects of American religious life that were hiding in plain sight. Dr. David Feltmate wrote about all this (in addition to how religion is portrayed in Family Guy and South Park) in his book Drawn to the Gods, and this week, he joined Kelly and John to talk about his life in religious studies, why he loves The Simpsons, and how religion exists in a post-Simpsons America. 34 years ago, in December of 1989, Fox aired Simpsons Roasting on an Open Fire, a Simpsons Christmas special, the de facto pilot to the subsequent primetime sitcom, and a cultural phenomenon was born.

To people of a certain age, The Simpsons is part of the cultural DNA. And as an animated sitcom, it had unique license to explore elements of American culture that no other series could. And one of those elements was religion.

The Simpson family went to church. They lived in a multicultural, multiethnic (but still predominantly white and Christian) community. They exposed aspects of American religious life that were hiding in plain sight.

Dr. David Feltmate wrote about all this (in addition to how religion is portrayed in Family Guy and South Park) in his book Drawn to the Gods, and this week, he joined Kelly and John to talk about his life in religious studies, why he loves The Simpsons, and how religion exists in a post-Simpsons America.

]]> 4831 #017 - Ghosts of Christmas Past - with Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman https://www.cageclub.me/victorian-christmas-ghosts/ But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph. Tue, 19 Dec 2023 05:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman join Kelly and John to talk about the ghosts that haunted the Victorian Christmas.0 But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black. So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol. And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past. Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again? This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph. But Scrooge was all the worse for this. It thrilled him with a vague uncertain horror, to know that behind the dusky shroud there were ghostly eyes intently fixed upon him, while he, though he stretched his own to the utmost, could see nothing but a spectral hand and one great heap of black.

So Charles Dickens described Ebenezer Scrooge's encounter with the Ghost of Christmas Yet to Come in his beloved 1843 classic A Christmas Carol.

And while A Christmas Carol is best known as the endlessly-adapted and reimagined cornerstone of modern Christmas storytelling, it's also a freaky ghost story, and it turns out that, in Dickens' England, telling ghost stories at Christmas was a whole thing! There were, as it turns out, a lot of ghosts in Christmas past.

Why did Victorians like themselves a spooky Christmas? And when did spookiness get replaced with mall Santas, Bing Crosby, and family church services? Is it too late to make Christmas spooky again?

This week, Kelly and John talk to folklorists Sara Cleto and Brittany Warman, co-founders of the Carterhaugh School about lost Christmas traditions, winter hauntings, and what else you should read if you prefer ghastly specters to eggnog and Rudolph.

]]> 4265 #016 - A Brief History of the War on Christmas https://www.cageclub.me/war-on-christmas/ It's December, which means it's time for everybody's racist uncle's favorite holiday tradition, the War on Christmas. Every year, sure as silver bells chime and lit wreathes line the streets of America's most aggressively white suburbs, Fox News delights eager viewers by trotting out this year's new battlefront narrative: Gay nutcrackers at Target! Insufficiently Christmassy Starbucks cup! Liberals cancelling Rudolph! If you ask Fox News and your least-favorite relatives, there is a War on Christmas...and there always will be. So Kelly and John are here to lay down so facts, starting with the fact that Christmas in the year 2023 is a much, much more religious affair than at any time in the past, and that Christmas is only growing more ubiquitous as a holiday globally. And that there was a War on Christmas - a war that Christmas won in a rout - waged by Christians for centuries. LINKS! The Right-Wing’s Forever War: A Short History Of The War On Christmas - Bill Berkowitz Who Waged the Very First ‘War on Christmas’? - Jade McClain Target is “Sexualizing Christmas for Children” Screeches Fox News - John Riley A Puritan Christmas under Cromwell - Jessica Brain The Plum Pudding Riots: What happened when Christmas was cancelled in Kent - Phil Hayes Tue, 05 Dec 2023 16:25:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John check in on the latest casualties in the War on Christmas and offer a little history on Christmas past and present. It's December, which means it's time for everybody's racist uncle's favorite holiday tradition, the War on Christmas. Every year, sure as silver bells chime and lit wreathes line the streets of America's most aggressively white suburbs, Fox News delights eager viewers by trotting out this year's new battlefront narrative: Gay nutcrackers at Target! Insufficiently Christmassy Starbucks cup! Liberals cancelling Rudolph! If you ask Fox News and your least-favorite relatives, there is a War on Christmas...and there always will be. So Kelly and John are here to lay down so facts, starting with the fact that Christmas in the year 2023 is a much, much more religious affair than at any time in the past, and that Christmas is only growing more ubiquitous as a holiday globally. And that there was a War on Christmas - a war that Christmas won in a rout - waged by Christians for centuries. LINKS! The Right-Wing’s Forever War: A Short History Of The War On Christmas - Bill Berkowitz Who Waged the Very First ‘War on Christmas’? - Jade McClain Target is “Sexualizing Christmas for Children” Screeches Fox News - John Riley A Puritan Christmas under Cromwell - Jessica Brain The Plum Pudding Riots: What happened when Christmas was cancelled in Kent - Phil Hayes It's December, which means it's time for everybody's racist uncle's favorite holiday tradition, the War on Christmas.

Every year, sure as silver bells chime and lit wreathes line the streets of America's most aggressively white suburbs, Fox News delights eager viewers by trotting out this year's new battlefront narrative: Gay nutcrackers at Target! Insufficiently Christmassy Starbucks cup! Liberals cancelling Rudolph!

If you ask Fox News and your least-favorite relatives, there is a War on Christmas...and there always will be.

So Kelly and John are here to lay down so facts, starting with the fact that Christmas in the year 2023 is a much, much more religious affair than at any time in the past, and that Christmas is only growing more ubiquitous as a holiday globally.

And that there was a War on Christmas - a war that Christmas won in a rout - waged by Christians for centuries.

LINKS!

The Right-Wing’s Forever War: A Short History Of The War On Christmas - Bill Berkowitz

Who Waged the Very First ‘War on Christmas’? - Jade McClain

Target is “Sexualizing Christmas for Children” Screeches Fox News - John Riley

A Puritan Christmas under Cromwell - Jessica Brain

The Plum Pudding Riots: What happened when Christmas was cancelled in Kent - Phil Hayes

]]> 3574 #015 - Unraveling the Thanksgiving Myth - with Dr. David J. Silverman https://www.cageclub.me/thanksgiving-david-silverman/ What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth Tue, 21 Nov 2023 05:00:00 -0000 full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. David J. Silverman helps us unpack the (nonsense, ahistorical) myth that lies at the heart of Thanksgiving. What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you? Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one. But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core. And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots. It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population. To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us. You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth What better way to celebrate Thanksgiving than to have Kelly and John ruin it for you?

Just kidding! We're not here to cancel Thanksgiving and we hope you have a lovely one.

But holidays are weird things - we often celebrate them without really examining why, or how we arrived at the myths and rituals that emanate from their core.

And Thanksgiving is, in many ways, our strangest holiday - a secular celebration that is at once also an aggressively religious one, built around a series of supposedly historical events that seem to have a lot of missing pieces when you start connecting the dots.

It can also be a day that evokes painful memories for the indigenous population.

To help us unpack what Thanksgiving is and what it is not, and to shed some light on how we came to celebrate this holiday as well as how important it is that we not let that celebration obscure our understanding of early American history and the genocide of the indigenous population, we asked historian David J. Silverman - author of This Land is Their Land - to join us.

You can buy Dr. Silverman's book here: This Land is Their Land @ Amazon

Read also Dr. Silverman's 2019 piece in The New York Times: The Vicious Reality Behind the Thanksgiving Myth

]]> 5118 #014 - Mike Johnson - Christian Nationalist Wolf in Normal Guy Clothing https://www.cageclub.me/mike-johnson-christian-nationalism/ Mike Johnson is the new Speaker of the House or Representatives. And what the media seems to think you should know about him is that he's very nice, he's smart. he's well-respected by his colleagues, he's personally liked by Democrats, and he's conservative Christian. Oh, and did we mention he's nice? Mike Johnson - real nice guy! What we think you should know about him, however, is that he is now the most powerful Christian Nationalist in the country - possibly in the history of the country. And Mike's niceness masks some truly dark intentions. Because while nobody seems to have heard of this guy before last month, he has been at the center of the far-right Christian project to remake America as a patriarchal theocracy, and he has very close ties to the likes of the Falwells, James Dobson, and Tony Perkins. So today, Kelly and John take some time to vent about the failure of our media and to try to correct their missteps ever so slightly, including highlighting some folks who have been covering Johnson the right way, as they provide a quick rundown of who Mike Johnson and why the ascension of this very nice man marks a very dangerous moment for the future of the country. The New York Times: The Embodiment of White Christian Nationalism in a Tailored Suit Mother Jones: Mike Johnson’s Long Flirtation With Christian Nationalism Mother Jones: Mike Johnson Conducted Seminars Promoting the US as a “Christian Nation” The Nation: The Folksy Fanaticism of Mike Johnson Tue, 07 Nov 2023 10:46:31 -0000 Mike Johnson - Christian Nationalist Wolf in Normal Guy Clothing full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks This week, Kelly and John discuss exactly why Very Nice Guy (tm) Mike Johnson is a serious threat to the future of liberal democracy. Fun! Mike Johnson is the new Speaker of the House or Representatives. And what the media seems to think you should know about him is that he's very nice, he's smart. he's well-respected by his colleagues, he's personally liked by Democrats, and he's conservative Christian. Oh, and did we mention he's nice? Mike Johnson - real nice guy! What we think you should know about him, however, is that he is now the most powerful Christian Nationalist in the country - possibly in the history of the country. And Mike's niceness masks some truly dark intentions. Because while nobody seems to have heard of this guy before last month, he has been at the center of the far-right Christian project to remake America as a patriarchal theocracy, and he has very close ties to the likes of the Falwells, James Dobson, and Tony Perkins. So today, Kelly and John take some time to vent about the failure of our media and to try to correct their missteps ever so slightly, including highlighting some folks who have been covering Johnson the right way, as they provide a quick rundown of who Mike Johnson and why the ascension of this very nice man marks a very dangerous moment for the future of the country. The New York Times: The Embodiment of White Christian Nationalism in a Tailored Suit Mother Jones: Mike Johnson’s Long Flirtation With Christian Nationalism Mother Jones: Mike Johnson Conducted Seminars Promoting the US as a “Christian Nation” The Nation: The Folksy Fanaticism of Mike Johnson Mike Johnson is the new Speaker of the House or Representatives.

And what the media seems to think you should know about him is that he's very nice, he's smart. he's well-respected by his colleagues, he's personally liked by Democrats, and he's conservative Christian. Oh, and did we mention he's nice? Mike Johnson - real nice guy!

What we think you should know about him, however, is that he is now the most powerful Christian Nationalist in the country - possibly in the history of the country. And Mike's niceness masks some truly dark intentions. Because while nobody seems to have heard of this guy before last month, he has been at the center of the far-right Christian project to remake America as a patriarchal theocracy, and he has very close ties to the likes of the Falwells, James Dobson, and Tony Perkins.

So today, Kelly and John take some time to vent about the failure of our media and to try to correct their missteps ever so slightly, including highlighting some folks who have been covering Johnson the right way, as they provide a quick rundown of who Mike Johnson and why the ascension of this very nice man marks a very dangerous moment for the future of the country.

The New York Times: The Embodiment of White Christian Nationalism in a Tailored Suit

Mother Jones: Mike Johnson’s Long Flirtation With Christian Nationalism

Mother Jones: Mike Johnson Conducted Seminars Promoting the US as a “Christian Nation”

The Nation: The Folksy Fanaticism of Mike Johnson


]]> 3767 Halloween Special - NEVERMORE: Poe, Pain, and "The Fall of the House of Usher" Jenn Tisdale joins John and Kelly to talk about Edgar Allan Poe and the new Netflix series from Mike Flanagan The Fall of the House of Usher Like he did for Shirley Jackson with The Haunting of Hill House, Flanagan's series remixes and reimagines much of Poe's work and life story to create something haunting, timely, and revelatory, exposing themes in Poe's work and digging into the author's sense of morality and justice. For this Halloween special, they discuss the role that fears of pain and death play in narrative, what Carla Cugino's Raven character suggests about justice and free will, and just how damn great this cast is. Tue, 31 Oct 2023 15:56:00 -0000 Halloween Special - NEVERMORE: Poe, Pain, and "The Fall of the House of Usher" full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Jenn Tisdale joins John and Kelly to talk about Edgar Allan Poe and the new Netflix series from Mike Flanagan "The Fall of the House of Usher" Jenn Tisdale joins John and Kelly to talk about Edgar Allan Poe and the new Netflix series from Mike Flanagan The Fall of the House of Usher Like he did for Shirley Jackson with The Haunting of Hill House, Flanagan's series remixes and reimagines much of Poe's work and life story to create something haunting, timely, and revelatory, exposing themes in Poe's work and digging into the author's sense of morality and justice. For this Halloween special, they discuss the role that fears of pain and death play in narrative, what Carla Cugino's Raven character suggests about justice and free will, and just how damn great this cast is. Jenn Tisdale joins John and Kelly to talk about Edgar Allan Poe and the new Netflix series from Mike Flanagan The Fall of the House of Usher

Like he did for Shirley Jackson with The Haunting of Hill House, Flanagan's series remixes and reimagines much of Poe's work and life story to create something haunting, timely, and revelatory, exposing themes in Poe's work and digging into the author's sense of morality and justice.

For this Halloween special, they discuss the role that fears of pain and death play in narrative, what Carla Cugino's Raven character suggests about justice and free will, and just how damn great this cast is.

]]> 4406 #013 - Religion of Fear - Horror in Conservative Evangelical America - with Jason Bivins https://www.cageclub.me/religion-of-fear-jason-bivins/ Jason Bivins is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism. He has also published multiple articles, review essays, and occasional pieces on religion, politics, and culture in the United States. His most recent book is Embattled America: The Rise of Anti-Politics and America’s Obsession with Religion (forthcoming, Oxford University Press, April 2022). A child of the era of the Satanic Panic - the unfounded moral hysteria around devil worship that gripped much of the US and Canada in the 1980s and 90s - Jason's interest and study of religion has been driven in large part by the experiences of his metal-loving, comic book-reading youth. Here he talks to Kelly and John about how conservative evangelicals manipulate and embrace horror tropes for their own ends in books like Left Behind, the story of Hell Houses, and how are cultural fractured and broke all our brains sometime in the mid 1990s. If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu. Wed, 25 Oct 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Religion of Fear - Horror in Conservative Evangelical America - with Jason Bivins full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Jason Bivins on Hell Houses, Left Behind, and the role horror plays in the imagination of the modern American evangelical conservative. Jason Bivins is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism. He has also published multiple articles, review essays, and occasional pieces on religion, politics, and culture in the United States. His most recent book is Embattled America: The Rise of Anti-Politics and America’s Obsession with Religion (forthcoming, Oxford University Press, April 2022). A child of the era of the Satanic Panic - the unfounded moral hysteria around devil worship that gripped much of the US and Canada in the 1980s and 90s - Jason's interest and study of religion has been driven in large part by the experiences of his metal-loving, comic book-reading youth. Here he talks to Kelly and John about how conservative evangelicals manipulate and embrace horror tropes for their own ends in books like Left Behind, the story of Hell Houses, and how are cultural fractured and broke all our brains sometime in the mid 1990s. If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu. Jason Bivins is a specialist in religion and American culture an is the author of 2008's Religion of Fear: The Politics of Horror in Conservative Evangelicalism.

He has also published multiple articles, review essays, and occasional pieces on religion, politics, and culture in the United States.

His most recent book is Embattled America: The Rise of Anti-Politics and America’s Obsession with Religion (forthcoming, Oxford University Press, April 2022).

A child of the era of the Satanic Panic - the unfounded moral hysteria around devil worship that gripped much of the US and Canada in the 1980s and 90s - Jason's interest and study of religion has been driven in large part by the experiences of his metal-loving, comic book-reading youth.

Here he talks to Kelly and John about how conservative evangelicals manipulate and embrace horror tropes for their own ends in books like Left Behind, the story of Hell Houses, and how are cultural fractured and broke all our brains sometime in the mid 1990s.

If you want to connect with Jason, you can email him at jcbivins@ncsu.edu.

]]> 4426 Midnight Mass Rerelease - From Hard to Believe 10/20/2021 (RAIN DELAY FILLER CONTENT!!) Mike Flanagan's "Midnight Mass" revisits a lot of the themes of much of his previous work: grief, death, trauma, loss (and you can listen to our discussion of his "Haunting Of" Netflix series here). But it also covers some a lot of new ground, including the complicated relationship between human beings and the religions they build. It is a show grounded as much in humanity as it is in horror, and it asks more questions than it answers - and, in this way, it demonstrates an understanding of what religion is and how it works that is rare not only for the genre but for popular fiction in general. John has been unable to stop thinking about the series since it debuted three weeks ago, and so, desperate to talk about it, he invited the two most qualified voices on the subjects of horror and religion he knows - Kelly J. Baker and Dan Colón, co-host and co-creator of Cage Club's The Monsters that Made Us. Dan on Twitter Show page: The Monsters That Made Us Tue, 24 Oct 2023 10:38:37 -0000 Midnight Mass Rerelease - From Hard to Believe 10/20/2021 (RAIN DELAY FILLER CONTENT!!) full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks A conversation about religion, horror, and human nature in Mike Flanagan's "Midnight Mass". Mike Flanagan's "Midnight Mass" revisits a lot of the themes of much of his previous work: grief, death, trauma, loss (and you can listen to our discussion of his "Haunting Of" Netflix series here). But it also covers some a lot of new ground, including the complicated relationship between human beings and the religions they build. It is a show grounded as much in humanity as it is in horror, and it asks more questions than it answers - and, in this way, it demonstrates an understanding of what religion is and how it works that is rare not only for the genre but for popular fiction in general. John has been unable to stop thinking about the series since it debuted three weeks ago, and so, desperate to talk about it, he invited the two most qualified voices on the subjects of horror and religion he knows - Kelly J. Baker and Dan Colón, co-host and co-creator of Cage Club's The Monsters that Made Us. Dan on Twitter Show page: The Monsters That Made Us Mike Flanagan's "Midnight Mass" revisits a lot of the themes of much of his previous work: grief, death, trauma, loss (and you can listen to our discussion of his "Haunting Of" Netflix series here).

But it also covers some a lot of new ground, including the complicated relationship between human beings and the religions they build. It is a show grounded as much in humanity as it is in horror, and it asks more questions than it answers - and, in this way, it demonstrates an understanding of what religion is and how it works that is rare not only for the genre but for popular fiction in general.

John has been unable to stop thinking about the series since it debuted three weeks ago, and so, desperate to talk about it, he invited the two most qualified voices on the subjects of horror and religion he knows - Kelly J. Baker and Dan Colón, co-host and co-creator of Cage Club's The Monsters that Made Us.

Dan on Twitter

Show page: The Monsters That Made Us

]]> 4862 (Emergency Alert) Chit-Chat Episode #5 - The 5G FEMA Zombie Endtimes If you've been feeling a little off lately, it's probably because FEMA recently tested a new emergency alert system and it activated the nanotech in your covid vaccine and now you're a zombie. As least, that's what a disturbing number of people on the right thought would happen. And maybe some of them still think it DID happen? You can find all about that in Matt Shuham's piece in the Huffington Post here: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fema-wireless-emergency-alerts-system-test-conspiracy-theories-zombies-5g_n_651c71bfe4b00623d35ea98f So this weekend, we're asking, first of all, "why?" - and trying to make sense of the timing and implications of this particularly loopy conspiracy theory and what it says about the state of right-wing endtimes conspiracism. Sat, 14 Oct 2023 04:00:00 -0000 (Emergency Alert) Chit-Chat Episode #5 - The 5G FEMA Zombie Endtimes full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks In this weekend chit-chat, Kelly and John discuss the recent FEMA 5G zombie hysteria and ask what it says about the state of endtimes conspiracism. If you've been feeling a little off lately, it's probably because FEMA recently tested a new emergency alert system and it activated the nanotech in your covid vaccine and now you're a zombie. As least, that's what a disturbing number of people on the right thought would happen. And maybe some of them still think it DID happen? You can find all about that in Matt Shuham's piece in the Huffington Post here: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fema-wireless-emergency-alerts-system-test-conspiracy-theories-zombies-5g_n_651c71bfe4b00623d35ea98f So this weekend, we're asking, first of all, "why?" - and trying to make sense of the timing and implications of this particularly loopy conspiracy theory and what it says about the state of right-wing endtimes conspiracism. If you've been feeling a little off lately, it's probably because FEMA recently tested a new emergency alert system and it activated the nanotech in your covid vaccine and now you're a zombie.

As least, that's what a disturbing number of people on the right thought would happen.

And maybe some of them still think it DID happen?

You can find all about that in Matt Shuham's piece in the Huffington Post here:

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/fema-wireless-emergency-alerts-system-test-conspiracy-theories-zombies-5g_n_651c71bfe4b00623d35ea98f

So this weekend, we're asking, first of all, "why?" - and trying to make sense of the timing and implications of this particularly loopy conspiracy theory and what it says about the state of right-wing endtimes conspiracism.

]]> 3152 #012 - The Power of Christ Compels You - Catholic Horror with Matthew J. Cressler https://www.cageclub.me/catholic-horror-matthew-cressler/ Horror would be nothing without Catholic horror. From crucifixes to demon possession, from Dante's "Inferno" to the "The Nun II", Catholic imagery and imagination have shaped horror for centuries. But the intersection of Catholicism and horror has a dark real-world connection, as well. The Hero Priest trope at once masks and alludes to a hidden legacy of clerical sexual abuse, and the threat of hell lingers in the imagination of so many believers. This week, we talk to our friend Matthew J. Cressler, a scholar of Catholicism and longtime fan of William Friedkin's 1973 classic "The Exorcist", about Catholicism's influence on horror as well as horror's influence on the Catholic imagination. You can find more about Matt and his work here: https://matthewjcressler.com/ Tue, 10 Oct 2023 04:00:00 -0000 The Power of Christ Compels You - Catholic Horror with Matthew J. Cressler full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Matthew J. Cressler joins us for a Spooky Season look at the intersection of horror and Catholicism. Horror would be nothing without Catholic horror. From crucifixes to demon possession, from Dante's "Inferno" to the "The Nun II", Catholic imagery and imagination have shaped horror for centuries. But the intersection of Catholicism and horror has a dark real-world connection, as well. The Hero Priest trope at once masks and alludes to a hidden legacy of clerical sexual abuse, and the threat of hell lingers in the imagination of so many believers. This week, we talk to our friend Matthew J. Cressler, a scholar of Catholicism and longtime fan of William Friedkin's 1973 classic "The Exorcist", about Catholicism's influence on horror as well as horror's influence on the Catholic imagination. You can find more about Matt and his work here: https://matthewjcressler.com/ Horror would be nothing without Catholic horror. From crucifixes to demon possession, from Dante's "Inferno" to the "The Nun II", Catholic imagery and imagination have shaped horror for centuries.

But the intersection of Catholicism and horror has a dark real-world connection, as well. The Hero Priest trope at once masks and alludes to a hidden legacy of clerical sexual abuse, and the threat of hell lingers in the imagination of so many believers.

This week, we talk to our friend Matthew J. Cressler, a scholar of Catholicism and longtime fan of William Friedkin's 1973 classic "The Exorcist", about Catholicism's influence on horror as well as horror's influence on the Catholic imagination.

You can find more about Matt and his work here: https://matthewjcressler.com/

]]> 4240 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #4 -The White Christianity to Western Chauvinism Pipeline In this Weekend Chit-Chat, we discuss: How the Klan of 1920s used mainstream acceptance and the mantle of Christianity to push their agenda in the center of American life, and we ask how the descendants of that group, like the Proud Boys, have altered those tactics in ways that seem radically different on the surface but maybe aren't so different after all. We talk absurd memes, the "it's just a joke!" defense, and tapping into pop culture references to appeal to the modern mainstream. But, hey, soccer! Soccer's good! Sat, 30 Sep 2023 13:03:20 -0000 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #4 -The White Christianity to Western Chauvinism Pipeline full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Religion, the KKK, the Proud Boys, Breakfast Cereals, and the weaponization of the ridiculous In this Weekend Chit-Chat, we discuss: How the Klan of 1920s used mainstream acceptance and the mantle of Christianity to push their agenda in the center of American life, and we ask how the descendants of that group, like the Proud Boys, have altered those tactics in ways that seem radically different on the surface but maybe aren't so different after all. We talk absurd memes, the "it's just a joke!" defense, and tapping into pop culture references to appeal to the modern mainstream. But, hey, soccer! Soccer's good! In this Weekend Chit-Chat, we discuss:

How the Klan of 1920s used mainstream acceptance and the mantle of Christianity to push their agenda in the center of American life, and we ask how the descendants of that group, like the Proud Boys, have altered those tactics in ways that seem radically different on the surface but maybe aren't so different after all.

We talk absurd memes, the "it's just a joke!" defense, and tapping into pop culture references to appeal to the modern mainstream.


But, hey, soccer! Soccer's good!

]]> 2911 #011 - God Has Forsaken Ashley: Chick Tracts ‐ with Chelsey Weber-Smith https://www.cageclub.me/chick-tracts-chelsey-weber-smith/ If you happen to fall within a certain (fairly broad) age range, there is a very good chance that somewhere, at some point, you have encountered Chick Tracts. Jack Chick's horrific, over-the-top, feverish warnings about what happens if you don't accept Christ before you DIE!!!! have literally littered city streets and coffee shop tabletops for decades. Chick Tracts are outlandish and, if you don't happen to be an ultra fundamentalist end times Christian, deeply offensive. But they are also interesting and, from an artistic perspective, clever and accomplished. In fact, purely in terms of how many eyes have seen his work, Jack Chick is one of the most successful artists ever. American Hysteria host Chelsey Weber-Smith recently released an in-depth, thoughtful, and thorough look at Chick's life and work, including his use of urban legend and horror tropes, and she joined us to talk about what made Chick tick, his theology, and why he's so beloved and despised (at the same time) by horror fans. You can find AH and Chelsey on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/americanhysteriapodcast/ Tue, 26 Sep 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Chick Tracts - with Chelsey Weber-Smith full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks American Hysteria's Chelsey Weber-Smith joins us to talk about the life and work of Jack Chick and the horrific zealotry of his Chick Tracts. If you happen to fall within a certain (fairly broad) age range, there is a very good chance that somewhere, at some point, you have encountered Chick Tracts. Jack Chick's horrific, over-the-top, feverish warnings about what happens if you don't accept Christ before you DIE!!!! have literally littered city streets and coffee shop tabletops for decades. Chick Tracts are outlandish and, if you don't happen to be an ultra fundamentalist end times Christian, deeply offensive. But they are also interesting and, from an artistic perspective, clever and accomplished. In fact, purely in terms of how many eyes have seen his work, Jack Chick is one of the most successful artists ever. American Hysteria host Chelsey Weber-Smith recently released an in-depth, thoughtful, and thorough look at Chick's life and work, including his use of urban legend and horror tropes, and she joined us to talk about what made Chick tick, his theology, and why he's so beloved and despised (at the same time) by horror fans. You can find AH and Chelsey on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/americanhysteriapodcast/ If you happen to fall within a certain (fairly broad) age range, there is a very good chance that somewhere, at some point, you have encountered Chick Tracts.

Jack Chick's horrific, over-the-top, feverish warnings about what happens if you don't accept Christ before you DIE!!!! have literally littered city streets and coffee shop tabletops for decades.

Chick Tracts are outlandish and, if you don't happen to be an ultra fundamentalist end times Christian, deeply offensive. But they are also interesting and, from an artistic perspective, clever and accomplished. In fact, purely in terms of how many eyes have seen his work, Jack Chick is one of the most successful artists ever.

American Hysteria host Chelsey Weber-Smith recently released an in-depth, thoughtful, and thorough look at Chick's life and work, including his use of urban legend and horror tropes, and she joined us to talk about what made Chick tick, his theology, and why he's so beloved and despised (at the same time) by horror fans.

You can find AH and Chelsey on Instagram here: https://www.instagram.com/americanhysteriapodcast/

]]> 4276 #010 - Religion and The Labor Movement - with Dr. Heath Carter https://www.cageclub.me/heath-carter-religion-labor/ For many, Labor Day is not much more than the end of summer movie season, a reason to have a cookout, or the symbolic beginning of the school year. It's the holiday we talk least about, in large part because the labor movement is one of the most underexamined areas of American history. So in honor of Labor Day, Kelly and John talked to Dr. Heath Carter, who has written extensively about the sometimes helpful, sometimes hostile role religion has played in driving the labor movement. Heath is an associate professor at Princeton Theological Seminary. He earned a BA in English and Theology from Georgetown University in 2003, an MA from the University of Chicago Divinity School in 2005, and a PhD in history from the University of Notre Dame in 2012. And he is the author of Union Made: Working People and the Rise of Social Christianity in Chicago, which was the runner up for the American Society of Church History’s 2015 Brewer Prize, as well as the co-editor of three books: The Pew and the Picket Line: Christianity and the American Working Class, Turning Points in the History of American Evangelicalism, and A Documentary History of Religion in America, 4th Ed. He is currently working on a new book entitled On Earth as it is in Heaven: Social Christians and the Fight to End American Inequality, which retells the story of the American social gospel. You can find more about him at his website: https://heathwcarter.com/ Tue, 12 Sep 2023 12:03:52 -0000 #010 - Religion and The Labor Movement - with Dr. Heath Carter full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. Heath Carter discusses the sometimes helpful, sometimes hostile relationship between religion and the labor movement. For many, Labor Day is not much more than the end of summer movie season, a reason to have a cookout, or the symbolic beginning of the school year. It's the holiday we talk least about, in large part because the labor movement is one of the most underexamined areas of American history. So in honor of Labor Day, Kelly and John talked to Dr. Heath Carter, who has written extensively about the sometimes helpful, sometimes hostile role religion has played in driving the labor movement. Heath is an associate professor at Princeton Theological Seminary. He earned a BA in English and Theology from Georgetown University in 2003, an MA from the University of Chicago Divinity School in 2005, and a PhD in history from the University of Notre Dame in 2012. And he is the author of Union Made: Working People and the Rise of Social Christianity in Chicago, which was the runner up for the American Society of Church History’s 2015 Brewer Prize, as well as the co-editor of three books: The Pew and the Picket Line: Christianity and the American Working Class, Turning Points in the History of American Evangelicalism, and A Documentary History of Religion in America, 4th Ed. He is currently working on a new book entitled On Earth as it is in Heaven: Social Christians and the Fight to End American Inequality, which retells the story of the American social gospel. You can find more about him at his website: https://heathwcarter.com/ For many, Labor Day is not much more than the end of summer movie season, a reason to have a cookout, or the symbolic beginning of the school year. It's the holiday we talk least about, in large part because the labor movement is one of the most underexamined areas of American history.

So in honor of Labor Day, Kelly and John talked to Dr. Heath Carter, who has written extensively about the sometimes helpful, sometimes hostile role religion has played in driving the labor movement.

Heath is an associate professor at Princeton Theological Seminary. He earned a BA in English and Theology from Georgetown University in 2003, an MA from the University of Chicago Divinity School in 2005, and a PhD in history from the University of Notre Dame in 2012.

And he is the author of Union Made: Working People and the Rise of Social Christianity in Chicago, which was the runner up for the American Society of Church History’s 2015 Brewer Prize, as well as the co-editor of three books: The Pew and the Picket Line: Christianity and the American Working Class, Turning Points in the History of American Evangelicalism, and A Documentary History of Religion in America, 4th Ed.

He is currently working on a new book entitled On Earth as it is in Heaven: Social Christians and the Fight to End American Inequality, which retells the story of the American social gospel.

You can find more about him at his website: https://heathwcarter.com/

]]> 4266 #009 - Deus Ex Machina - Jesus Chatbots and the Religion of A.I. https://www.cageclub.me/jesus-chatbots/ Did you know A.I is not just the title of one of the best movies of the 21st century - it's a also a thing that's making a lot of news?? Well, we did, because we're very young and hip and with it. In this episode, we consider the implication of some of the emerging areas of A.I. - like ChatGPT - on religion. First, Kelly spent some time chatting with Jesus on two different platforms - a text based interface where users can ask Jesus questions and get text message responses (and can also ask the Devil questions...for a price!! *cue ominous music*) Second, John takes a look at the now defunct Way of the Future upstart religion, which had the goal of forming a benevolent relationship with our omniscient cyber overlords before they decide to go all SkyNet on us. We consider whether A.I. Jesus may replace tradition religious experiences, like prayer, and what religious movements that emerge around emerging technology, like Scientology and Heaven's Gate, tell us about religion itself. Tue, 29 Aug 2023 04:00:00 -0000 #009 - Deus Ex Machina - Jesus Chatbots and the Religion of A.I.#009 - Deus Ex Machina - Jesus Chatbots and the Religion of A.I. full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly texts with Jesus and John looks back on Way of the Future as we consider the relationship between religion and A.I. Did you know A.I is not just the title of one of the best movies of the 21st century - it's a also a thing that's making a lot of news?? Well, we did, because we're very young and hip and with it. In this episode, we consider the implication of some of the emerging areas of A.I. - like ChatGPT - on religion. First, Kelly spent some time chatting with Jesus on two different platforms - a text based interface where users can ask Jesus questions and get text message responses (and can also ask the Devil questions...for a price!! *cue ominous music*) Second, John takes a look at the now defunct Way of the Future upstart religion, which had the goal of forming a benevolent relationship with our omniscient cyber overlords before they decide to go all SkyNet on us. We consider whether A.I. Jesus may replace tradition religious experiences, like prayer, and what religious movements that emerge around emerging technology, like Scientology and Heaven's Gate, tell us about religion itself. Did you know A.I is not just the title of one of the best movies of the 21st century - it's a also a thing that's making a lot of news??

Well, we did, because we're very young and hip and with it.

In this episode, we consider the implication of some of the emerging areas of A.I. - like ChatGPT - on religion.

First, Kelly spent some time chatting with Jesus on two different platforms - a text based interface where users can ask Jesus questions and get text message responses (and can also ask the Devil questions...for a price!! *cue ominous music*)

Second, John takes a look at the now defunct Way of the Future upstart religion, which had the goal of forming a benevolent relationship with our omniscient cyber overlords before they decide to go all SkyNet on us.

We consider whether A.I. Jesus may replace tradition religious experiences, like prayer, and what religious movements that emerge around emerging technology, like Scientology and Heaven's Gate, tell us about religion itself.

]]> 4102 #008 - Solomon Missouri - Twitter's Pastor https://www.cageclub.me/solomon-missouri/ It's Kelly's birthday (John's was yesterday...) and so we decided to talk to one of her favorites - Solomon Missouri, known to those in the know as Twitter's Pastor. In his own words, Rev. Solomon Missouri's ministry focuses on sexuality and spirituality outside and beyond church walls. We talk about how he stumbled into his role as Twitter's favorite spiritual leader, where Christianity is going, how he ministers to atheists who are still looking for community and support. You can find out more about his on his website here: https://www.solomonmissouri.com/ Rev. Missouri is also on all the social medias of note, including, of course (we still call it) Twitter @solomonmissouri Tue, 15 Aug 2023 04:00:00 -0000 #008 - Solomon Missouri - Twitter's Pastor full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Rev. Solomon Missouri talks about life as a pastor on and offline and the future of Christianity. It's Kelly's birthday (John's was yesterday...) and so we decided to talk to one of her favorites - Solomon Missouri, known to those in the know as Twitter's Pastor. In his own words, Rev. Solomon Missouri's ministry focuses on sexuality and spirituality outside and beyond church walls. We talk about how he stumbled into his role as Twitter's favorite spiritual leader, where Christianity is going, how he ministers to atheists who are still looking for community and support. You can find out more about his on his website here: https://www.solomonmissouri.com/ Rev. Missouri is also on all the social medias of note, including, of course (we still call it) Twitter @solomonmissouri It's Kelly's birthday (John's was yesterday...) and so we decided to talk to one of her favorites - Solomon Missouri, known to those in the know as Twitter's Pastor.

In his own words, Rev. Solomon Missouri's ministry focuses on sexuality and spirituality outside and beyond church walls. We talk about how he stumbled into his role as Twitter's favorite spiritual leader, where Christianity is going, how he ministers to atheists who are still looking for community and support.

You can find out more about his on his website here: https://www.solomonmissouri.com/

Rev. Missouri is also on all the social medias of note, including, of course (we still call it) Twitter @solomonmissouri

]]> 4149 #007 - Preparing for War - Brad Onishi on the threat of Christian Nationalism https://www.cageclub.me/brad-onishi-preparing-for-war/ Dr. Bradley Onishi is the author of the recent Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next as well as the co-host of the podcast Straight White American Jesus, which focuses on the the state of Christian Nationalism from a variety of angles. He joined John and Kelly to talk about his book, his experience growing up in California and converting to evangelical Christianity (which he would later go on to leave), and where exactly we are in the fight for a secular democracy in America. You can find out more about Brad, his books, and the podcast at his website: https://www.bradonishi.com/ Tue, 01 Aug 2023 04:00:00 -0000 #007 - Preparing for War - Brad Onishi on the threat of Christian Nationalism full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. Bradley Onishi talks to Kelly and John about the threat of Christian Nationalism in America. Dr. Bradley Onishi is the author of the recent Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next as well as the co-host of the podcast Straight White American Jesus, which focuses on the the state of Christian Nationalism from a variety of angles. He joined John and Kelly to talk about his book, his experience growing up in California and converting to evangelical Christianity (which he would later go on to leave), and where exactly we are in the fight for a secular democracy in America. You can find out more about Brad, his books, and the podcast at his website: https://www.bradonishi.com/ Dr. Bradley Onishi is the author of the recent Preparing for War: The Extremist History of White Christian Nationalism and What Comes Next as well as the co-host of the podcast Straight White American Jesus, which focuses on the the state of Christian Nationalism from a variety of angles.

He joined John and Kelly to talk about his book, his experience growing up in California and converting to evangelical Christianity (which he would later go on to leave), and where exactly we are in the fight for a secular democracy in America.

You can find out more about Brad, his books, and the podcast at his website: https://www.bradonishi.com/

]]> 4690 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #3 - Your True Authentic Self On this chit-chat, we try to define what we mean when we say "authentic", what is "the true self", and we are all so prone to dividing religion into "real" and "fake". Also - fitness cults, the console wars, Coke and Pepsi, and Haruki Murakami. For this episode, we looked at work by Chrissy Stroop (https://religiondispatches.org/christian-nationalism-is-authentically-christian-and-according-to-a-new-poll-most-white-evangelicals-are-supporters/), Jessica Grose (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/26/opinion/religion-fitness.html), and David Chidester (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520242807/authentic-fakes) Sat, 29 Jul 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #3 - Your True Authentic Self full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks We talk about what we mean when we say "authentic", what is "the true self", and we are all so prone to dividing religion into "real" and "fake". On this chit-chat, we try to define what we mean when we say "authentic", what is "the true self", and we are all so prone to dividing religion into "real" and "fake". Also - fitness cults, the console wars, Coke and Pepsi, and Haruki Murakami. For this episode, we looked at work by Chrissy Stroop (https://religiondispatches.org/christian-nationalism-is-authentically-christian-and-according-to-a-new-poll-most-white-evangelicals-are-supporters/), Jessica Grose (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/26/opinion/religion-fitness.html), and David Chidester (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520242807/authentic-fakes) On this chit-chat, we try to define what we mean when we say "authentic", what is "the true self", and we are all so prone to dividing religion into "real" and "fake".

Also - fitness cults, the console wars, Coke and Pepsi, and Haruki Murakami.

For this episode, we looked at work by Chrissy Stroop (https://religiondispatches.org/christian-nationalism-is-authentically-christian-and-according-to-a-new-poll-most-white-evangelicals-are-supporters/), Jessica Grose (https://www.nytimes.com/2023/07/26/opinion/religion-fitness.html), and David Chidester (https://www.ucpress.edu/book/9780520242807/authentic-fakes)

]]> 3717 #006 - Dr. Shreena Gandhi - Yoga, White Supremacy, and Caste https://www.cageclub.me/shreena-gandhi/ Shreena Gandhi is a part of the Religious Studies Department at Michigan State University, where is primarily teaches classes on religion and race in the Americas. She is currently finishing up edits on a manuscript, A Cultural History of Yoga in the United States, which looks at the impacts of race, gender and class on how yoga is practiced and commodified in religious and secular spaces. And she is working on two other projects: one on religious seeking in the colonial and post-colonial global south, which uses her grandfather’s writings and books as primary evidence, as well as the writings of other colonial and post-colonial religious seekers. And the other is a collaborative project on how to transform U.S. religious history into an anti-racist, anti-colonial and anti-sexist discipline which helps move forward the goals of decolonization. She joined Kelly and John to talk about the history of yoga in the United States, how the story of colonialism and white supremacy cannot be separated from the popularity of yoga in the west, and what can and should be done about it. She also shared her thoughts on the past and future of the caste system.   Tue, 18 Jul 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Dr. Shreena Gandhi - Yoga, White Supremacy, and Caste full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr, Shreena Gandhi speaks to Kelly and John about yoga and white supremacy in the the west. Shreena Gandhi is a part of the Religious Studies Department at Michigan State University, where is primarily teaches classes on religion and race in the Americas. She is currently finishing up edits on a manuscript, A Cultural History of Yoga in the United States, which looks at the impacts of race, gender and class on how yoga is practiced and commodified in religious and secular spaces. And she is working on two other projects: one on religious seeking in the colonial and post-colonial global south, which uses her grandfather’s writings and books as primary evidence, as well as the writings of other colonial and post-colonial religious seekers. And the other is a collaborative project on how to transform U.S. religious history into an anti-racist, anti-colonial and anti-sexist discipline which helps move forward the goals of decolonization. She joined Kelly and John to talk about the history of yoga in the United States, how the story of colonialism and white supremacy cannot be separated from the popularity of yoga in the west, and what can and should be done about it. She also shared her thoughts on the past and future of the caste system.   Shreena Gandhi is a part of the Religious Studies Department at Michigan State University, where is primarily teaches classes on religion and race in the Americas.

She is currently finishing up edits on a manuscript, A Cultural History of Yoga in the United States, which looks at the impacts of race, gender and class on how yoga is practiced and commodified in religious and secular spaces.

And she is working on two other projects: one on religious seeking in the colonial and post-colonial global south, which uses her grandfather’s writings and books as primary evidence, as well as the writings of other colonial and post-colonial religious seekers.

And the other is a collaborative project on how to transform U.S. religious history into an anti-racist, anti-colonial and anti-sexist discipline which helps move forward the goals of decolonization.

She joined Kelly and John to talk about the history of yoga in the United States, how the story of colonialism and white supremacy cannot be separated from the popularity of yoga in the west, and what can and should be done about it. She also shared her thoughts on the past and future of the caste system.

 

]]> 4611 #005 - Is July 4th a Religious Holiday? https://www.cageclub.me/july-4th-religious-holiday/ This week, Kelly and John take on July 4th and ask if it's possible to wrestle it away from the darker side of American history as well as its increasingly Christian Nationalist connotations. Even though (or maybe because) America is not, in fact, a Christian nation and has no official religious identity, is July 4th a religious holiday? Has the project of state that (purportedly) guarantees freedom of religion and keeps the government (purportedly) independent of any religious affiliation actually made American history and its icons objects of religious devotion? Also this week: The good news is dogs and Bears. And we spend too much time on Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA". Plus, we talk about how where you are in America often reflects what you're actually celebrating on Independence Day, we bring up Robert Bellah's 1967 article "American Civil Religion", that time Thomas Jefferson tried to take all the miracles out the New Testament, and the fact that most of the founders were deists. And we somehow make no references to the 1996 movie, while Kelly attempts to accurately employ the phrase "go to bat for". Tue, 04 Jul 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Is July 4th a Religious Holiday? full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John look at July 4th, American civil religion, and whether there's an unproblematic way to celebrate American Independence Day in the current setting. This week, Kelly and John take on July 4th and ask if it's possible to wrestle it away from the darker side of American history as well as its increasingly Christian Nationalist connotations. Even though (or maybe because) America is not, in fact, a Christian nation and has no official religious identity, is July 4th a religious holiday? Has the project of state that (purportedly) guarantees freedom of religion and keeps the government (purportedly) independent of any religious affiliation actually made American history and its icons objects of religious devotion? Also this week: The good news is dogs and Bears. And we spend too much time on Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA". Plus, we talk about how where you are in America often reflects what you're actually celebrating on Independence Day, we bring up Robert Bellah's 1967 article "American Civil Religion", that time Thomas Jefferson tried to take all the miracles out the New Testament, and the fact that most of the founders were deists. And we somehow make no references to the 1996 movie, while Kelly attempts to accurately employ the phrase "go to bat for". This week, Kelly and John take on July 4th and ask if it's possible to wrestle it away from the darker side of American history as well as its increasingly Christian Nationalist connotations.

Even though (or maybe because) America is not, in fact, a Christian nation and has no official religious identity, is July 4th a religious holiday? Has the project of state that (purportedly) guarantees freedom of religion and keeps the government (purportedly) independent of any religious affiliation actually made American history and its icons objects of religious devotion?

Also this week: The good news is dogs and Bears. And we spend too much time on Lee Greenwood's "God Bless the USA".

Plus, we talk about how where you are in America often reflects what you're actually celebrating on Independence Day, we bring up Robert Bellah's 1967 article "American Civil Religion", that time Thomas Jefferson tried to take all the miracles out the New Testament, and the fact that most of the founders were deists.

And we somehow make no references to the 1996 movie, while Kelly attempts to accurately employ the phrase "go to bat for".

]]> 3604 #004 - UFOs as Religion - with Toby Ball https://www.cageclub.me/toby-ball-ufos-religion/ Toby Ball is the host and creator of the series Strange Arrivals, a production of iHeart Radio an Aaron Mahnke's Grim and Mild. The recently-concluded third season of his show looks at UFO researchers who developed theories to explain the phenomenon and the consequences those theories had for people who believed they had experienced the paranormal. In the finale, Toby explores the ways in which belief in aliens via the UFO phenomenon functions as a modern religious movement, including the ways in which it pierce the boundaries of an obsession to become something more like a faith, and how UFO culture often bears the traits of a hopeful apocalyptic cult not unlike early Christianity. Kelly and John talked to Toby about how his own religious perspective (or lake thereof) informs the series, how UFO culture is distinct from fully-formed religious identities, and if we have any reason to believe the latest guy with the "real story" of the US government and UFOs any more than the endless parade of similar guys who came before him. You can find Strange Arrivals on the Grim and Mild website here: https://www.grimandmild.com/strangearrivals You can learn more about Toby and his work here: http://www.tobyball.com/ Tue, 20 Jun 2023 04:00:00 -0000 #004 - UFOs as Religion - with Toby Ball full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks "Strange Arrivals" host Toby Ball talks to Kelly and John about UFOs, faith, and the endless parade of modern Great Disappointments. Toby Ball is the host and creator of the series Strange Arrivals, a production of iHeart Radio an Aaron Mahnke's Grim and Mild. The recently-concluded third season of his show looks at UFO researchers who developed theories to explain the phenomenon and the consequences those theories had for people who believed they had experienced the paranormal. In the finale, Toby explores the ways in which belief in aliens via the UFO phenomenon functions as a modern religious movement, including the ways in which it pierce the boundaries of an obsession to become something more like a faith, and how UFO culture often bears the traits of a hopeful apocalyptic cult not unlike early Christianity. Kelly and John talked to Toby about how his own religious perspective (or lake thereof) informs the series, how UFO culture is distinct from fully-formed religious identities, and if we have any reason to believe the latest guy with the "real story" of the US government and UFOs any more than the endless parade of similar guys who came before him. You can find Strange Arrivals on the Grim and Mild website here: https://www.grimandmild.com/strangearrivals You can learn more about Toby and his work here: http://www.tobyball.com/ Toby Ball is the host and creator of the series Strange Arrivals, a production of iHeart Radio an Aaron Mahnke's Grim and Mild.

The recently-concluded third season of his show looks at UFO researchers who developed theories to explain the phenomenon and the consequences those theories had for people who believed they had experienced the paranormal.

In the finale, Toby explores the ways in which belief in aliens via the UFO phenomenon functions as a modern religious movement, including the ways in which it pierce the boundaries of an obsession to become something more like a faith, and how UFO culture often bears the traits of a hopeful apocalyptic cult not unlike early Christianity.

Kelly and John talked to Toby about how his own religious perspective (or lake thereof) informs the series, how UFO culture is distinct from fully-formed religious identities, and if we have any reason to believe the latest guy with the "real story" of the US government and UFOs any more than the endless parade of similar guys who came before him.

You can find Strange Arrivals on the Grim and Mild website here: https://www.grimandmild.com/strangearrivals

You can learn more about Toby and his work here: http://www.tobyball.com/

]]> 4731 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #2 - There Are No Spoons https://www.cageclub.me/the-last-of-us/ This week was the tenth anniversary of the release of the The Last of Us on PlayStation 3. The critically-acclaimed HBO television adaptation aired earlier this year, and so we thought it would be a good time to take a look back at its themes and messages, especially where it concerns religion. Visions of the apocalypse can serve as great platforms to explore ideas about human nature, but, while they tend to be interested in the philosophy of religion, they often drop the ball when it comes to the actual depiction of religious people. How does The Last of Us stack up as far as that goes? What did we think of the "religion episode"? Is Ellie a Christ figure? And how come all the spoons and can openers seem to vanish when the world ends? We talk about that and more in this installment of our weekend chit-chat series! Also, read Kelly's book about this: The Zombies Are Coming! Sat, 17 Jun 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #2 - There Are No Spoons full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks It's a weekend chit-chat episode, and this time we're tackling "The Last of Us", zombies, religion, and the mysterious vanishing spoons! This week was the tenth anniversary of the release of the The Last of Us on PlayStation 3. The critically-acclaimed HBO television adaptation aired earlier this year, and so we thought it would be a good time to take a look back at its themes and messages, especially where it concerns religion. Visions of the apocalypse can serve as great platforms to explore ideas about human nature, but, while they tend to be interested in the philosophy of religion, they often drop the ball when it comes to the actual depiction of religious people. How does The Last of Us stack up as far as that goes? What did we think of the "religion episode"? Is Ellie a Christ figure? And how come all the spoons and can openers seem to vanish when the world ends? We talk about that and more in this installment of our weekend chit-chat series! Also, read Kelly's book about this: The Zombies Are Coming! This week was the tenth anniversary of the release of the The Last of Us on PlayStation 3.

The critically-acclaimed HBO television adaptation aired earlier this year, and so we thought it would be a good time to take a look back at its themes and messages, especially where it concerns religion.

Visions of the apocalypse can serve as great platforms to explore ideas about human nature, but, while they tend to be interested in the philosophy of religion, they often drop the ball when it comes to the actual depiction of religious people.

How does The Last of Us stack up as far as that goes? What did we think of the "religion episode"? Is Ellie a Christ figure? And how come all the spoons and can openers seem to vanish when the world ends?

We talk about that and more in this installment of our weekend chit-chat series!

Also, read Kelly's book about this: The Zombies Are Coming!

]]> 4249 #003 - Magic's a Messy Bitch - with Dr. Shaily Patel https://www.cageclub.me/shaily-patel-magic/ When you work in religious studies, sometimes you get to work on really cool subjects, like Dr. Shaily Patel, who works on magic. For centuries, magic had been an integral part of religion. So much so, in fact, that it's hard to really see it as a separate category. So when did we start removing magic from religious practice and putting into the wands of boy wizards and teenage witches, or the hands of bearded old men? Why is magic a Vegas act instead of Church liturgy? The short answer is Christianity. The long answer is what Kelly and John invited Shaily on to talk about this week. Shaily Patel is an assistant professor of early Christianity at Virginia Tech. She earned her Ph.D. from The University of North Carolina in 2017 and holds master’s degrees from Vanderbilt Divinity School and The University of Chicago.  You can find her on Twitter @vox_magica Tue, 06 Jun 2023 12:36:54 -0000 Magic's a Messy Bitch - with Dr. Shaily Patel full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Expecto Podcastum! Kelly and John are joined by Dr. Shaily Patel to talk about the history of magic in the post-Christian world. When you work in religious studies, sometimes you get to work on really cool subjects, like Dr. Shaily Patel, who works on magic. For centuries, magic had been an integral part of religion. So much so, in fact, that it's hard to really see it as a separate category. So when did we start removing magic from religious practice and putting into the wands of boy wizards and teenage witches, or the hands of bearded old men? Why is magic a Vegas act instead of Church liturgy? The short answer is Christianity. The long answer is what Kelly and John invited Shaily on to talk about this week. Shaily Patel is an assistant professor of early Christianity at Virginia Tech. She earned her Ph.D. from The University of North Carolina in 2017 and holds master’s degrees from Vanderbilt Divinity School and The University of Chicago.  You can find her on Twitter @vox_magica When you work in religious studies, sometimes you get to work on really cool subjects, like Dr. Shaily Patel, who works on magic.

For centuries, magic had been an integral part of religion. So much so, in fact, that it's hard to really see it as a separate category.

So when did we start removing magic from religious practice and putting into the wands of boy wizards and teenage witches, or the hands of bearded old men? Why is magic a Vegas act instead of Church liturgy?

The short answer is Christianity.

The long answer is what Kelly and John invited Shaily on to talk about this week.

Shaily Patel is an assistant professor of early Christianity at Virginia Tech. She earned her Ph.D. from The University of North Carolina in 2017 and holds master’s degrees from Vanderbilt Divinity School and The University of Chicago. 

You can find her on Twitter @vox_magica

]]> 4187 Weekend Chit-Chat Episode #1 - The Middle Way In the first weekend episode, John bring Kelly the topic of the Buddhist teaching of The Middle Way. One of the first breakthroughs in Siddhartha's journey to become the Buddha, the Middle Way reminds us that in order to be successful in our quests, we must center ourselves in moderation. This means avoiding the pitfalls of thinking in terms of extremes - that the answer to our problems is probably not ever the opposite of whatever caused them. As a society, and as a culture, we suck at this. And, worse, we tend to confuse the wisdom of this teaching with an endorsement of centrism, contrarianism, or moderation for moderation's sake. And as two people who tend to take on more than they can handle and are very bad at considering their own mental well-being, your two hosts consider where they might learn from the Buddha's insights here as well! Sat, 27 May 2023 04:00:00 -0000 The Middle Way full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks John talks to Kelly about Buddha's teaching of the Middle Way, and how we all suck at it. In the first weekend episode, John bring Kelly the topic of the Buddhist teaching of The Middle Way. One of the first breakthroughs in Siddhartha's journey to become the Buddha, the Middle Way reminds us that in order to be successful in our quests, we must center ourselves in moderation. This means avoiding the pitfalls of thinking in terms of extremes - that the answer to our problems is probably not ever the opposite of whatever caused them. As a society, and as a culture, we suck at this. And, worse, we tend to confuse the wisdom of this teaching with an endorsement of centrism, contrarianism, or moderation for moderation's sake. And as two people who tend to take on more than they can handle and are very bad at considering their own mental well-being, your two hosts consider where they might learn from the Buddha's insights here as well! In the first weekend episode, John bring Kelly the topic of the Buddhist teaching of The Middle Way.

One of the first breakthroughs in Siddhartha's journey to become the Buddha, the Middle Way reminds us that in order to be successful in our quests, we must center ourselves in moderation. This means avoiding the pitfalls of thinking in terms of extremes - that the answer to our problems is probably not ever the opposite of whatever caused them.

As a society, and as a culture, we suck at this. And, worse, we tend to confuse the wisdom of this teaching with an endorsement of centrism, contrarianism, or moderation for moderation's sake.

And as two people who tend to take on more than they can handle and are very bad at considering their own mental well-being, your two hosts consider where they might learn from the Buddha's insights here as well!

]]> 2643 #002 - Dr. Megan Goodwin on public scholarship in religious studies https://www.cageclub.me/megan-goodwin/ This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Megan Goodwin about the importance of getting religious studies out to the public and the challenges and tools for doing so. Dr. Goodwin is the co-host of the podcast Keeping it 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion. Her formal expertise is in issues of gender, sexuality, race, politics, and American religions. She is the author of the 2020 book Abusing Religion: Literary Persecution, Sex Scandals, and American Minority Religions as well as the forthcoming Cults, Inc. Here she talks to your hosts about her journey into religious studies, why people should care about religion (even if they aren't religious), how her podcast works to demystify religion and make it more accessible, and why she calls Kelly "Kellsworth". You can find out more about her here: https://www.megan-goodwin.com/ Tue, 23 May 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Dr. Megan Goodwin on public scholarship in religious studies full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Dr. Megan Goodwin talks to Kelly and John about religion podcasting and the importance of public scholarship in religious studies. This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Megan Goodwin about the importance of getting religious studies out to the public and the challenges and tools for doing so. Dr. Goodwin is the co-host of the podcast Keeping it 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion. Her formal expertise is in issues of gender, sexuality, race, politics, and American religions. She is the author of the 2020 book Abusing Religion: Literary Persecution, Sex Scandals, and American Minority Religions as well as the forthcoming Cults, Inc. Here she talks to your hosts about her journey into religious studies, why people should care about religion (even if they aren't religious), how her podcast works to demystify religion and make it more accessible, and why she calls Kelly "Kellsworth". You can find out more about her here: https://www.megan-goodwin.com/ This week, Kelly and John talk to Dr. Megan Goodwin about the importance of getting religious studies out to the public and the challenges and tools for doing so.

Dr. Goodwin is the co-host of the podcast Keeping it 101: A Killjoy's Introduction to Religion. Her formal expertise is in issues of gender, sexuality, race, politics, and American religions. She is the author of the 2020 book Abusing Religion: Literary Persecution, Sex Scandals, and American Minority Religions as well as the forthcoming Cults, Inc.

Here she talks to your hosts about her journey into religious studies, why people should care about religion (even if they aren't religious), how her podcast works to demystify religion and make it more accessible, and why she calls Kelly "Kellsworth".

You can find out more about her here: https://www.megan-goodwin.com/

]]> 4010 #001 - Mike Rothschild on his upcoming book "Jewish Space Lasers" https://www.cageclub.me/mike-rothschild-…ish-space-lasers/ Mike Rothschild, author of the acclaimed 2021 book The Storm Is Upon Us: How QAnon Became a Movement, Cult, and Conspiracy Theory of Everything, is set to publish his follow-up, Jewish Space Lasers: The Rothschilds and 200 Years of Conspiracy Theories, in September. The book covers the history of the antisemitic conspiracy theories surrounding the Rothschild (to whom Mike is not related) family and how they set a new model for framing Jewish people as responsible for major world events. Mike joined Kelly and John to discuss the book, its title (a joking reference to a conspiracy theory concerning wildfires and satellites once voiced by congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene), why someone with his last name would want to get into this ine of work, and why antisemitism often isn't really about religion at all. You can preorder Jewish Space Lasers here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/733925/jewish-space-lasers-by-mike-rothschild/ You can learn more about Mike and his work at his website: https://themikerothschild.com/ Mike is on Twitter @rothschildmd Tue, 09 May 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Mike Rothschild on his upcoming book "Jewish Space Lasers" full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Kelly and John discuss "Jewish Space Lasers" and antisemitic conspiracy tropes with author Mike Rothschild Mike Rothschild, author of the acclaimed 2021 book The Storm Is Upon Us: How QAnon Became a Movement, Cult, and Conspiracy Theory of Everything, is set to publish his follow-up, Jewish Space Lasers: The Rothschilds and 200 Years of Conspiracy Theories, in September. The book covers the history of the antisemitic conspiracy theories surrounding the Rothschild (to whom Mike is not related) family and how they set a new model for framing Jewish people as responsible for major world events. Mike joined Kelly and John to discuss the book, its title (a joking reference to a conspiracy theory concerning wildfires and satellites once voiced by congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene), why someone with his last name would want to get into this ine of work, and why antisemitism often isn't really about religion at all. You can preorder Jewish Space Lasers here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/733925/jewish-space-lasers-by-mike-rothschild/ You can learn more about Mike and his work at his website: https://themikerothschild.com/ Mike is on Twitter @rothschildmd Mike Rothschild, author of the acclaimed 2021 book The Storm Is Upon Us: How QAnon Became a Movement, Cult, and Conspiracy Theory of Everything, is set to publish his follow-up, Jewish Space Lasers: The Rothschilds and 200 Years of Conspiracy Theories, in September.

The book covers the history of the antisemitic conspiracy theories surrounding the Rothschild (to whom Mike is not related) family and how they set a new model for framing Jewish people as responsible for major world events.

Mike joined Kelly and John to discuss the book, its title (a joking reference to a conspiracy theory concerning wildfires and satellites once voiced by congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene), why someone with his last name would want to get into this ine of work, and why antisemitism often isn't really about religion at all.

You can preorder Jewish Space Lasers here: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/733925/jewish-space-lasers-by-mike-rothschild/

You can learn more about Mike and his work at his website: https://themikerothschild.com/

Mike is on Twitter @rothschildmd

]]> 3676 Metamorphosis - Hard to Believe becomes Pod Only Knows Next week, we release the first official episode of Pod Only Knows. But to ease the transition from Hard to Believe, Kelly and John took some time to explain the idea and format of the new show and to let listeners get to know them both a little better. Tue, 02 May 2023 04:00:00 -0000 Metamorphosis - Hard to Believe becomes Pod Only Knows full Kelly J. Baker and John Brooks Learn about what's in store for Pod Only Knows and get to better know your hosts! Next week, we release the first official episode of Pod Only Knows. But to ease the transition from Hard to Believe, Kelly and John took some time to explain the idea and format of the new show and to let listeners get to know them both a little better. Next week, we release the first official episode of Pod Only Knows. But to ease the transition from Hard to Believe, Kelly and John took some time to explain the idea and format of the new show and to let listeners get to know them both a little better.

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